Flight rescheduled - is it possible to claim expenses?

slicendice

flaneurs_lobster said:

Westin said:

I would add caution to the suggestion of just booking a RyanAir flight on the 7th without discussing this plan with Aer Lingus.   If your brother is listed as a no-show for the DUB MAN flight then all onward sectors on the same ticket could be cancelled - so any return MAN DUB LAX flight lost.

Oh that's a very good point. I had assumed (it seems wrongly) that LAX-DUB-MAN was the return half of the trip.

Sorry yes, I didn't make it clear...he lives in LA so this is the first half of the trip. They return to LA two weeks later.

eskbanker

slicendice said:

Is it relevant that the flight hasn't actually been cancelled (that we're aware)...he's simply been bumped off it onto a different flight?

When the rep was asked why this was occurring, he said that he "didn't have that information available". I originally assumed it was due to overbooking (which I believe is commonplace) but if that is the case, it seems very premature to be bumping people off the flight - I'd have thought they would usually wait to the last minute to do that, as there may well be no-shows which would mitigate the overbooking?

There's no harm in pushing them for more detail, but my understanding is that being bumped off a flight effectively grants the same rights to the passenger as the flight being cancelled, otherwise airlines could avoid liabilities by simply doing that to all passengers booked on a flight rather than just cancelling it!

As enacted, the regulations don't actually clarify this point (other than for involuntary denial of boarding at the time of flying), but various court cases since they were written have effectively expanded the definition of cancellation, on the basis of inconvenience to passengers, so I believe that this would qualify.

slicendice

eskbanker said:

slicendice said:

Is it relevant that the flight hasn't actually been cancelled (that we're aware)...he's simply been bumped off it onto a different flight?

When the rep was asked why this was occurring, he said that he "didn't have that information available". I originally assumed it was due to overbooking (which I believe is commonplace) but if that is the case, it seems very premature to be bumping people off the flight - I'd have thought they would usually wait to the last minute to do that, as there may well be no-shows which would mitigate the overbooking?

There's no harm in pushing them for more detail, but my understanding is that being bumped off a flight effectively grants the same rights to the passenger as the flight being cancelled, otherwise airlines could avoid liabilities by simply doing that to all passengers booked on a flight rather than just cancelling it!

As enacted, the regulations don't actually clarify this point (other than for involuntary denial of boarding at the time of flying), but various court cases since they were written have effectively expanded the definition of cancellation, on the basis of inconvenience to passengers, so I believe that this would qualify.

That's very much what I'd assumed (and hoped!) would be the case.

He's going to phone them again today, see if he can get through to someone who's slightly more clued up.

Westin

slicendice said:

eskbanker said:

slicendice said:

My brother has a flight for him and his 2 kids from Los Angeles to Manchester via Dublin on Aer Lingus. The LA flight arrives into Dublin at 14:30 on Thu 7th August and the flight from Dublin to Manchester was later that same day (Thu 7th) at 20:20.

He's recently been told by Aer Lingus that the Dublin to Manchester flight has been changed and they are now on the 06:30 flight the following day on Fri 8th August - which means they now need an overnight stay in Dublin.

Apparently the Aer Lingus representative he was speaking with said he could "apply for a refund" of expenses due to having to stay overnight in a hotel. That doesn't sound very convincing to me as it sounds like he was saying "well, you can try if you want..."!

If a flight is rescheduled by the airline more than 14 days in advance, and it directly causes the need to pay for hotel accommodation, should that be something that can be claimed back from the airline? Has anyone had any experience of this?

Thanks!

(I realise this is more reimbursement than compensation but I wasn't sure where else to post!)

Where an airline cancels a flight (which would include a significant reschedule) and rebooks the passenger onto a flight the next day they are obliged to arrange hotel accommodation at no cost to the passenger, so it's not even a case of reimbursing, the airline technically has to book it and pay, together with the cost of transport between airport and hotel, and reasonable meals.

Point them towards article 5(1)(b) of the EC261 regulations:

Article 5

Cancellation

1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:

(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and

(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of re-routing when the reasonably expected time of departure of the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and [...]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32004R0261

The bolded wording is what requires them to arrange hotel, meals and transport under article 9:

Article 9

Right to care

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered free of charge:

(a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time;

(b) hotel accommodation in cases

- where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or

- where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary;

(c) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other).

Thanks for that info, much appreciated 👍 

Is it relevant that the flight hasn't actually been cancelled (that we're aware)...he's simply been bumped off it onto a different flight?

When the rep was asked why this was occurring, he said that he "didn't have that information available". I originally assumed it was due to overbooking (which I believe is commonplace) but if that is the case, it seems very premature to be bumping people off the flight - I'd have thought they would usually wait to the last minute to do that, as there may well be no-shows which would mitigate the overbooking?

I would double check that.  I think you may find that it is just that EI3228 is not operating that evening.

slicendice

Westin said:

slicendice said:

eskbanker said:

slicendice said:

My brother has a flight for him and his 2 kids from Los Angeles to Manchester via Dublin on Aer Lingus. The LA flight arrives into Dublin at 14:30 on Thu 7th August and the flight from Dublin to Manchester was later that same day (Thu 7th) at 20:20.

He's recently been told by Aer Lingus that the Dublin to Manchester flight has been changed and they are now on the 06:30 flight the following day on Fri 8th August - which means they now need an overnight stay in Dublin.

Apparently the Aer Lingus representative he was speaking with said he could "apply for a refund" of expenses due to having to stay overnight in a hotel. That doesn't sound very convincing to me as it sounds like he was saying "well, you can try if you want..."!

If a flight is rescheduled by the airline more than 14 days in advance, and it directly causes the need to pay for hotel accommodation, should that be something that can be claimed back from the airline? Has anyone had any experience of this?

Thanks!

(I realise this is more reimbursement than compensation but I wasn't sure where else to post!)

Where an airline cancels a flight (which would include a significant reschedule) and rebooks the passenger onto a flight the next day they are obliged to arrange hotel accommodation at no cost to the passenger, so it's not even a case of reimbursing, the airline technically has to book it and pay, together with the cost of transport between airport and hotel, and reasonable meals.

Point them towards article 5(1)(b) of the EC261 regulations:

Article 5

Cancellation

1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:

(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and

(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of re-routing when the reasonably expected time of departure of the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and [...]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32004R0261

The bolded wording is what requires them to arrange hotel, meals and transport under article 9:

Article 9

Right to care

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered free of charge:

(a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time;

(b) hotel accommodation in cases

- where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or

- where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary;

(c) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other).

Thanks for that info, much appreciated 👍 

Is it relevant that the flight hasn't actually been cancelled (that we're aware)...he's simply been bumped off it onto a different flight?

When the rep was asked why this was occurring, he said that he "didn't have that information available". I originally assumed it was due to overbooking (which I believe is commonplace) but if that is the case, it seems very premature to be bumping people off the flight - I'd have thought they would usually wait to the last minute to do that, as there may well be no-shows which would mitigate the overbooking?

I would double check that.  I think you may find that it is just that EI3228 is not operating that evening.

If he was able to book the flight in the first place, would it not count as being cancelled if it is now not operating?

Westin

If it was EI 3228 DUB MAN that is no longer operating then that would be treated the same way as a flight cancellation.

I was just trying to pull the focus back to the flight no longer being scheduled, rather than your suggestion that it was overbooked and your brother was bumped off the flight. This does not seem to be the case.

slicendice

Westin said:

If it was EI 3228 DUB MAN that is no longer operating then that would be treated the same way as a flight cancellation.

I was just trying to pull the focus back to the flight no longer being scheduled, rather than your suggestion that it was overbooked and your brother was bumped off the flight. This does not seem to be the case.

Ah ok...understood.

Thanks 👍