Car breakdown issues directly after garage service - garage not taking responsibility

Beaver_29

Summary:
I recently got my car serviced and very soon afterwards my car started to break down. The garage have examined the car and are not taking responsibility for the issue, and I am being faced with a hefty repair bill. I would like some advice on how likely it is that the garage that performed the service is at fault, and what my best course of action is from here.

Full detail:

I recently got my car serviced and the next day after driving away from the garage (c.15 miles of driving) my car began to experience difficulties starting up. After a couple of attempts I got it started again and was able to complete my journey, however from the next day onwards the car would not start at all.

A fairly small amount of oil was also leaking from under the bonnet onto the driveway - around a small cupful if I had to estimate. During the service the oil was changed, along with replacement of the cabin air filter and brake fluid. The service had also identified various fault codes which the garage cleared.

The car was recovered to the garage for diagnosis of the issue. After 16 days of having the car and looking at it on and off, the garage came to the conclusion that a fuel injector was stuck open, which had flooded the engine and exhaust system with diesel. As a result, the injector needs to be replaced, an exhaust regeneration performed to clean it and a new battery, leading to a bill of almost £1000 including £400 just for the replacement injector.

The car is 9 years old and has 110k miles on the clock, so it's not unreasonable that an injector would fail, but the timing makes me feel uncomfortable given the issues began almost immediately after the service.

The garage are not taking any responsibility, saying that "it's just one of those things" and bad timing. They say that while the injectors were not inspected during the service, a visual inspection of them like the one recommended in the dealer's maintenance schedule would not have identified the issue anyway.

They say that while the other injectors have not been tested, they are currently working, but to test them they would need to be sent away resulting in further time and expense. I'm not sure about this because an internet search suggests there are various ways to test an injector.

They say that no more oil is leaking, that any excess oil on the car's undecarriage would be old oil that was washed out of the engine during the service oil change and took time to drip down from the engine.

While it'll be hard to prove without the vehicle being independently inspected, is it likely that the garage is correct on all of the above points, and it is a very unfortunate coincidence, or is anything dodgy at play?

MattMattMattUK

Beaver_29 said:

Summary:
I recently got my car serviced and very soon afterwards my car started to break down. The garage have examined the car and are not taking responsibility for the issue, and I am being faced with a hefty repair bill. I would like some advice on how likely it is that the garage that performed the service is at fault, and what my best course of action is from here.

Full detail:

I recently got my car serviced and the next day after driving away from the garage (c.15 miles of driving) my car began to experience difficulties starting up. After a couple of attempts I got it started again and was able to complete my journey, however from the next day onwards the car would not start at all.

A fairly small amount of oil was also leaking from under the bonnet onto the driveway - around a small cupful if I had to estimate. During the service the oil was changed, along with replacement of the cabin air filter and brake fluid. The service had also identified various fault codes which the garage cleared.

The car was recovered to the garage for diagnosis of the issue. After 16 days of having the car and looking at it on and off, the garage came to the conclusion that a fuel injector was stuck open, which had flooded the engine and exhaust system with diesel. As a result, the injector needs to be replaced, an exhaust regeneration performed to clean it and a new battery, leading to a bill of almost £1000 including £400 just for the replacement injector.

The car is 9 years old and has 110k miles on the clock, so it's not unreasonable that an injector would fail, but the timing makes me feel uncomfortable given the issues began almost immediately after the service.

The garage are not taking any responsibility, saying that "it's just one of those things" and bad timing. They say that while the injectors were not inspected during the service, a visual inspection of them like the one recommended in the dealer's maintenance schedule would not have identified the issue anyway.

They say that while the other injectors have not been tested, they are currently working, but to test them they would need to be sent away resulting in further time and expense. I'm not sure about this because an internet search suggests there are various ways to test an injector.

They say that no more oil is leaking, that any excess oil on the car's undecarriage would be old oil that was washed out of the engine during the service oil change and took time to drip down from the engine.

While it'll be hard to prove without the vehicle being independently inspected, is it likely that the garage is correct on all of the above points, and it is a very unfortunate coincidence, or is anything dodgy at play?

Correlation does not imply causation. 

Even an "independent inspection", basically another garage, is not going to link the two. Injectors fail, that would not normally result in a failed battery, but if you kept trying to start the engine and flattened the battery that could degrade it and after nine years it might not be that healthy in the first place. There are various ways to test an injector, the garage may not be comfortable with those methods, hence sending it away, where it can be tested for flow rate, pressure, response time etc. It might be frustrating but it sounds like like bad luck rather than anything else. 

Ayr_Rage

What were the fault codes that were cleared?

They could have indicated issues with emissions and the fuel system.

If the diagnosis of a failed injector is correct and none of the cleared codes are related then it's likely to just be a coincidence.

MyRealNameToo

Beaver_29 said:

Summary:
I recently got my car serviced and very soon afterwards my car started to break down. The garage have examined the car and are not taking responsibility for the issue, and I am being faced with a hefty repair bill. I would like some advice on how likely it is that the garage that performed the service is at fault, and what my best course of action is from here.

Have you actually looked at what was done in the service? 

A basic service can be just removing the oil filter, allowing it to drain, put a new filter on and top up with oil in terms of actual doing. The rest is just a visual inspection of brakes, fluid levels etc.

It's not clear if you are thinking that somehow an oil change caused an injector to break or if you are alleging they intentionally sabotaged the vehicle? 

If you assume that people get their car serviced annually there is a 1/12 chance that any breakdown happens within a month of the service. It's far from a long shot. 

It sounds like you arent a regular at this garage? If you were then you'd probably trust they haven't sabotaged the car in previous visits. If you arent then its a bit of a long shot for them as you're as likely to take the car elsewhere to get fixed as you are the garage that just did a service and it may lose them future services too. 

jimjames

MyRealNameToo said:

Beaver_29 said:

Summary:
I recently got my car serviced and very soon afterwards my car started to break down. The garage have examined the car and are not taking responsibility for the issue, and I am being faced with a hefty repair bill. I would like some advice on how likely it is that the garage that performed the service is at fault, and what my best course of action is from here.

It's not clear if you are thinking that somehow an oil change caused an injector to break or if you are alleging they intentionally sabotaged the vehicle? 

I didn't get the impression that the OP was alleging sabotage, more like poor workmanship or accidental damage during the service. Issues don't appear to be linked though unless as above fault codes cleared were relevant to the problem. Clearing codes without fixing the issue generally isn't a good idea.

facade

Beaver_29 said:

<snip>

While it'll be hard to prove without the vehicle being independently inspected, is it likely that the garage is correct on all of the above points, and it is a very unfortunate coincidence, or is anything dodgy at play?

It is most likely co-incidence, but

1) 16 days to diagnose a stuck open injector? (unless it was a sudden catastrophic event I'd have expected the sump oil to show signs of diesel that I would have picked up at the service, even if I hoped it was just failed regenerations rather than a failing injector)

2)  leaving enough spilled oil to drip a cupful onto your immaculate drive? 

3) £1000 to supply & fit a £400 injector?

4) Clearing unspecified fault codes without recommending further investigation?

5) You now need a new battery as well?

I'd find another garage- but you will be lucky to find one that does any better on point 2). (It annoys me beyond annoyance that after paying through the nose for a service to preserve the warranty I then have to go back over their work to bring it up to the standard that I'd have done it to myself for zero labour cost in the first place)

The fault code thing could just be minor spurious fault codes that some cars, like my Citroen, like to spray out at random, usually whenever the battery falls below 12.8V, but they could have said what they were about, or suggested that you bring it back in a few weeks to see if they came back (and charged you £30 for the diagnostic...)

 

Goudy

Well if they buggered the injector at the service, either maliciously or not. You would have probably known when you picked it up. It would have ran like a bag of spanners pumping out acrid white smoke (unburnt diesel).

£400 for a single injector is quite pricey. Some are that expensive like the latest BMW's but generally £200 to £250, but we don't know the make and model. 

A new battery can be expensive. 
A decent branded AGM battery, if it is an AGM one, could be nearly £200.

You'll have a fair bit if labour.
Injector swaps can be time consuming. The new injector will need coding and the fuel system priming.

Then you have the clean up.
An engine flush.
More oil and oil filter.
Clean out the exhaust and perform a regen.

It all adds up.


You can test a set or individual injectors in the engine, but it's not a definitive test.
A spill off test usually indicates the injectors condition.
The injectors are over supplied with fuel and the excess returned to the pump/fuel filter/tank via smaller pipes on the head or side of the injector.

If this is measured individually from each injector, it can indicate the overall condition.
Say one is spilling off far more then the others, that would suggest that injector is a possible problem. (they should really spill off within 10% or less of each over)
But to test them properly, they need coming out and sending off to a specialist and calibrated. 

Having had a few problematic common rail diesels in my time, I would suspect this injector has probably been grumbling for a while, just wish we knew what those codes were.

Generally when one starts to fail like this it causes rail pressure issues, but not all the time. 
Like I wrote the injectors are over supplied with fuel but when demand is high and there's a dodgy injector,  the rail pressure tends to drop enough you might get flashing fuel system warning lights on the dash and pending diagnostic trouble codes relating to an intermittent rail pressure issue.
Sometimes you might get a limp mode if it does it enough in one drive cycle, but that will usually clear with a engine reset as it thinks everything is ok again.
The rest of the time when demand is not high, it'll run well.





 

Beaver_29

Thank you all for reading my long post and giving very useful insights and opinions. Responses to all below.

MattMattMattUK said:

Correlation does not imply causation. 

Even an "independent inspection", basically another garage, is not going to link the two. Injectors fail, that would not normally result in a failed battery, but if you kept trying to start the engine and flattened the battery that could degrade it and after nine years it might not be that healthy in the first place. There are various ways to test an injector, the garage may not be comfortable with those methods, hence sending it away, where it can be tested for flow rate, pressure, response time etc. It might be frustrating but it sounds like like bad luck rather than anything else. 

Thanks for your opinion. Re the battery yes that is my understanding too. It's the original 9 year old battery so the replacement of that is the least of my worries!

Ayr_Rage said:

What were the fault codes that were cleared?

They could have indicated issues with emissions and the fuel system.

If the diagnosis of a failed injector is correct and none of the cleared codes are related then it's likely to just be a coincidence.

This is the info provided by the garage following the service - the garage didn't provide the actual codes though:
"Fault codes for vacuum pump rang/performance
Fault codes for invalid data ECM/PCM
Fault codes for steering wheel sensor
Fault codes for error signal received from EPS control module
Fault codes for turbocharger boost pressures not detected
More codes were previously present before clearing"

I'm not sure if any of these would directly or indirectly relate to issues with emissions and the fuel system.

MyRealNameToo said:

Have you actually looked at what was done in the service? 

A basic service can be just removing the oil filter, allowing it to drain, put a new filter on and top up with oil in terms of actual doing. The rest is just a visual inspection of brakes, fluid levels etc.

It's not clear if you are thinking that somehow an oil change caused an injector to break or if you are alleging they intentionally sabotaged the vehicle? 

If you assume that people get their car serviced annually there is a 1/12 chance that any breakdown happens within a month of the service. It's far from a long shot. 

It sounds like you arent a regular at this garage? If you were then you'd probably trust they haven't sabotaged the car in previous visits. If you arent then its a bit of a long shot for them as you're as likely to take the car elsewhere to get fixed as you are the garage that just did a service and it may lose them future services too. 

I have indeed actually looked at what was done in the service - I was very specific with the garage as to what needed to be done so the service history is maintained. As well as the standard visual inspection, the oil, brake fluid and cabin filter were replaced.

Not alleging intentional sabotage. The injectors started to fail within 15 miles of driving away from the garage, hence my question as to whether it's a very unfortunate coincidence. If it was a month on from the service then I wouldn't be asking the question.

That's right, first time using the garage as I've recently relocated.

jimjames said:

I didn't get the impression that the OP was alleging sabotage, more like poor workmanship or accidental damage during the service. Issues don't appear to be linked though unless as above fault codes cleared were relevant to the problem. Clearing codes without fixing the issue generally isn't a good idea.

Spot on. I've shared the fault codes provided above.

facade said:

It is most likely co-incidence, but

1) 16 days to diagnose a stuck open injector? (unless it was a sudden catastrophic event I'd have expected the sump oil to show signs of diesel that I would have picked up at the service, even if I hoped it was just failed regenerations rather than a failing injector)

2)  leaving enough spilled oil to drip a cupful onto your immaculate drive? 

3) £1000 to supply & fit a £400 injector?

4) Clearing unspecified fault codes without recommending further investigation?

5) You now need a new battery as well?

I'd find another garage- but you will be lucky to find one that does any better on point 2). (It annoys me beyond annoyance that after paying through the nose for a service to preserve the warranty I then have to go back over their work to bring it up to the standard that I'd have done it to myself for zero labour cost in the first place)

The fault code thing could just be minor spurious fault codes that some cars, like my Citroen, like to spray out at random, usually whenever the battery falls below 12.8V, but they could have said what they were about, or suggested that you bring it back in a few weeks to see if they came back (and charged you £30 for the diagnostic...)

Thanks. On 1) yes 16 days - but probably a few hours of actual work on the car in that time, I think they just de-prioritised it above their other bookings despite my daily chasing! If it's relevant, in the service oil was found near the filter and the sump plug washer failed. I was charged for a new sump seal.

On 3) the £1000 includes 3 hours labour for a cleaning exhaust regeneration in addition to the £400 injector and £100 battery.

On 4) looks like it!

I've shared the brief fault code descriptions above. The battery is likely a combination of old age and possibly additional degradation during the failed attempts to start the engine after it failed.

Goudy said:

Well if they buggered the injector at the service, either maliciously or not. You would have probably known when you picked it up. It would have ran like a bag of spanners pumping out acrid white smoke (unburnt diesel).

£400 for a single injector is quite pricey. Some are that expensive like the latest BMW's but generally £200 to £250, but we don't know the make and model. 

A new battery can be expensive. 
A decent branded AGM battery, if it is an AGM one, could be nearly £200.

You'll have a fair bit if labour.
Injector swaps can be time consuming. The new injector will need coding and the fuel system priming.

Then you have the clean up.
An engine flush.
More oil and oil filter.
Clean out the exhaust and perform a regen.

It all adds up.

You can test a set or individual injectors in the engine, but it's not a definitive test.
A spill off test usually indicates the injectors condition.
The injectors are over supplied with fuel and the excess returned to the pump/fuel filter/tank via smaller pipes on the head or side of the injector.

If this is measured individually from each injector, it can indicate the overall condition.
Say one is spilling off far more then the others, that would suggest that injector is a possible problem. (they should really spill off within 10% or less of each over)
But to test them properly, they need coming out and sending off to a specialist and calibrated. 

Having had a few problematic common rail diesels in my time, I would suspect this injector has probably been grumbling for a while, just wish we knew what those codes were.

Generally when one starts to fail like this it causes rail pressure issues, but not all the time. 
Like I wrote the injectors are over supplied with fuel but when demand is high and there's a dodgy injector,  the rail pressure tends to drop enough you might get flashing fuel system warning lights on the dash and pending diagnostic trouble codes relating to an intermittent rail pressure issue.
Sometimes you might get a limp mode if it does it enough in one drive cycle, but that will usually clear with a engine reset as it thinks everything is ok again.
The rest of the time when demand is not high, it'll run well.

Fair enough. It's a Mazda CX-5 - does it still seem expensive for an injector? Battery cost I've been invoiced c.£100. And yes, 3 hours labour total.

Why do you think the garage is not keen to at least perform the more simple tests in the engine, or even acknowledge that it's possible to do so? For all we know the other could also be on their last legs.

I've shared the fault descriptions in response to another message in case that makes the picture clearer.

paul_c123

Beaver_29 said:

Re the battery yes that is my understanding too. It's the original 9 year old battery so the replacement of that is the least of my worries!

This is the info provided by the garage following the service - the garage didn't provide the actual codes though:
"Fault codes for vacuum pump rang/performance
Fault codes for invalid data ECM/PCM
Fault codes for steering wheel sensor
Fault codes for error signal received from EPS control module
Fault codes for turbocharger boost pressures not detected
More codes were previously present before clearing"

I'm not sure if any of these would directly or indirectly relate to issues with emissions and the fuel system.

When there are several fault codes for unrelated components (turbocharger isn't connected to the steering wheel, for example) it normally means there is another common factor and the fault codes are a downstream consequence.

I would suggest the battery went flat - possibly they had the car unlocked all day on a ramp, maybe even with the door open. Then they charged it up, but it had logged a bunch of fault codes. So its not the injector.

Goudy

The spill off test helps identify a duff injector but they seemed to have managed that already.
It's not really going to give them a deep insight into the rest of them, a specialist is needed for that.

I think Mazda used Denso injectors, they do seem to be pricier than some others.
New they are around £300 or so, more from Mazda.
A refurbished one is around £180.

I seem to remember the first gen 2.2 Skyactiv-D was prone to injector seal problems that leaked fuel into the bores which ended up in the engine oil. Now you mention the make and model, that could be it.

Often new seals are the fix, but the injector can also fail.

The diluted oil can also cause major engine issues like oil pump problems, turbo and bearing problems.
Hopefully you didn't run it long with all the diesel in the fuel.

You are also luck it didn't "run away".
Problems with fuel getting into the oil and that all getting into the cylinders causes diesels to run on it uncontrollably.
They'll rev their nuts off until they goes bang and there is nothing you can do about it, they don't have an ignition/spark to kill and there's no throttle flap to cut the air off. It has everything it needs to run away until it self destructs! 

paul_c123

Except the throttle flap.