ELMS Legal AOS stage - 8 of 10 signs in car park missing

Serigala

Hello
Have kept on putting this off, but also seems like some of the advice is that it is only when I receive the letter from the Courts and Tribunal Service, requiring Acknowledgement of Service that action is actually required.

When the car was parked I submitted an appeal that was rejected by email (rather than the letter I was expecting), so I missed the rejection. £60 I might be able to stomach, but by this point I was facing £170 which is close enough to expected court costs that I thought I might as well see this through.

I have now received the letter from the Courts and am about to respond online thanks to the excellent MCOL AOS help file. I don't think I would have relied on the tiny small print suggesting I should check if I can issue my claim online without it.

Then I understand that I have 30 days to draft a defence.
Most of my defence appears to be standard wording provided here. Again thanks.
I am concerned that 30+ paragraphs might or might not exceed the permitted word count if I try to submit online but I guess I will soon find out.

I have secured a copy of the contract between the landowner and Vehicle Control Services. It is dated 31st May 2012 with auto renewal annually.
Included in the contract was the location of a total of 40 signs placed around the car park. The presence of these signs can be confirmed in November 2012 through Google Street View.

At the time that my car was parked (and to date) only 5 of 40 signs are present on the estate. In the section of the car park that I was parked 2 of 10 were present.

Of the 2 signs the one at the entrance is parallel to the entrance on the door of a bin store, on the passenger side of the driveway in.  It cannot be read from the drivers seat of an incoming vehicle without craning across the passenger seat. The sign to the left of this one is present but is not clearly associated with the car park where my car was parked.  

So, are these appropriate paragraphs to add to my defence? Is so where should they be placed in the pecking order?



#. There was no sign at the entrance of the car park which meets the minimum standards under the IPC Code of Practise to state the terms of parking. As a result, the driver cannot be liable for breach of contract where none was established. The IPC Code of Practise has guidelines for signage and is defined in Schedule 1 which states: “Entrance signs should: a) make it clear that the Motorist is entering onto private land; b) refer the Motorist to the signs within the Car Park which display the full terms and conditions. Signs should where practicable, be placed at the entrance to a Car Park. Otherwise, the signage within the Car Park must be such as to be obvious to the Motorist.”  Therefore, the failure to adhere to the IPC guidelines on adequate signage, which is required to form the contract, the claim is unenforceable.

#. The closest sign to the entrance, cannot be read from the driver’s seat of a car entering the car park.

#. Original signage has not been maintained. Of 40 signs deemed necessary by Vehicle Control Services around the entire site, documented within their contract with the landowner and charged to the landowner, 35 are no longer present. Within the section of the car park where my car was parked 8 signs of the 10 originally deemed necessary are missing.

#. The Defendant’s car was parked in a space clearly marked for the use of visitors. The presence of such spaces is necessarily ambiguous. It is not a reasonable assumption that visitors to a site are required to display a permit, and none of the signage explains that visitor’s permits are required to park in visitor's spaces. 



I am unsure how much of these details should be added at this point.

In addition, I have seen that asking ELMS Legal whether their charge includes the VAT of the debt collection service, is an option. Should I still pursue this? Or as we are already at AOS is this no moot? Can someone please give me ELMS Legal email address if this is worth pursuing?
Should that be added to the defence in some way?


Many Thanks

Gr1pr

So its VCS via Elms Legal at the moment 

The AOS should be completed by the defendant on MCOL after 5 days from the Issue date on the top right of the claim form,  but before 19 days,  so ideally a week after the issue date is good 

There is NO 30 days option,  the deadline is 33 days after the issue date from the top right of the claim form if the AOS stage is completed as described above 

The new one week old defence template is around 10 paragraphs,  not 30 paragraphs like the old template defence,  so adapt the new template defence from the top of this forum by coupon mad ( 30 paragraphs wont fit into the MCOL defence box, hence the newer concise template   )

Add a short paragraph about poor and inadequate signage,  not war and peace,  save the long explanations and maps etc for your Witness statement plus Exhibits bundle in several months time.   The WS is where war and peace is written , so save the elaboration for that Witness Statement 

Ensure that your adaptations rebut the POC details too

Concentrate on the live court claim,  not the now defunct pre court stages

Coupon-mad

And after doing the defence:

Secondly, pretty please, if you want to be part of the push to change things in future:

It's very important that people like you tell the Government that:

a) you have no faith in POPLA or the IAS and that there must be the SINGLE APPEALS SERVICE that the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019 *almost* promised. That will give a real option to resolve disputed cases out of court.

b).  THAT THE ENRICHMENT OF 'DEBT RECOVERY FEES' MUST BE COMPLETELY BANNED. DISPUTED CASES ARE NOT SOLVED BY DEMANDING MORE MONEY AND ENGINEERING A 'PAYMENT PLAN'.

c). Tell them about your experience. Your claim. How horrific all this is for motorists.

Responses are invited to the Consultation now:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6617396/parking-code-of-practice-consultation-8-weeks-from-11th-july-2025/p1

Do it this month or in August at the latest pleeease! We will discuss it on that thread.

Car1980

40 signs deemed necessary by Vehicle Control Services around the entire site, documented within their contract with the landowner and charged to the landowner, 35 are no longer present. Within the section of the car park where my car was parked 8 signs of the 10 originally deemed necessary are missing

This will be the crux of your defence. Excellent work getting the evidence. 

Serigala

I am still thinking through the defence and have started looking at aspects of the process that I had not considered as potential vulnerablities.

When the car was parked it received a blue card PRIVACY NOTICE. The only addition was the date. No details of time, or car registration number etc. If this was a notice to driver, then it was not POFA compliant.
If it was simply a warning that a notice to keeper was to follow then have they actually done everything required of them? 
Apologies - I did start a new thread to ask about this, as it felt that it was a separate query. 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81567767
I was wondering if there should be an additional paragraph I should add to the defence regarding non-compliance. Advice there is that I should focus on court defence - implying that non-compliance is not relevant to this step. 

Coupon-mad

Read this VCS claim thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75879770#Comment_75879770

...where the poster @adambuzz14
got a sceptical Judge (who first of all 'shut him down') to finally understand the fact the red card that he got on his windscreen IS (and can only be) a Notice to driver.

Thus, the NTK arrived too soon and they have neither followed para 8 nor para 9 of Schedule 4. pre-requisites of keeper liability - they have to follow one route or the other if trying to hold a keeper liable.

You can quote adambuzz14's claim number & date/place of hearing (not that it is a precedent but it's a case of similar facts). Transcript:

Case No: E1QZ7X7C

IN THE COUNTY COURT AT DERBY.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/peh3uwf1wnrwq5g/APPROVED -E1QZ7X7C-VCS-BURZYNSKI.pdf?dl=0

But only relevant if you weren't driving and he got a red card which mimicked a notice whereas yours is a hybrid 'privacy notice'.

It's very poor practice by VCS either way, IMHO.

Serigala

Arrghg!
So as is typical left completing the defence to the last date. (Submitted my AOS 19/7/25)
Issue Date 9/7/25 Today 6/8/25 is 28 days. I think I have 28 or 30 or 33. 

So using my Government Gateway I can't find the case online.
I submit the Claim Number and password but it is telling me there is an error. 

I have created a new Money Claim online account (associated with different Gateways and different email addresses) - so I now have multiple numbers, but none of them have worked. I do know the number associated with the original claim.
I tried calling the helpline but my phone keypad won't talk to the automated system.
Do I need to go the written route? Or is there a guide that might address this? 
Many Thanks
 

Serigala

Got through on the helpline and they texted me an email address to submit the defence to...

HMCTS Civil Contact: ClaimResponses.CNBC@justice.gov.uk

And also texted me these links to the relevant forms;

HMCTS Civil Contact: The forms you require is

N9 Acknowledgement of service:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c45e568ed915d38a0611a61/n9-eng.pdf

The e-mail address you require for Acknowledgement of Service, AOS is:

AOS.CNBC@justice.gov.uk

N9A Specified admission form:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e4e7a42d3bf7f393c0914ab/n9a-eng.pdf

N9B Specified defence and counterclaim* form:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/866787/N9B_web_0818_save.pdf

They also confirmed that 28 days is from a date 5 days after the date issued (confirming the 28 + 5 = 33 days)

Coupon-mad

Yes...we know the email addresses. We already provide them in the Template Defence thread.

You won't be using a form. Until last month we always emailed defences aa an attached (signed & dated) PDF, so this is normal stuff found on the forum.

The issue you have is you can't just send some words in an email: you must create a word doc, add the claim details headers and the Statement of Truth, signature and date at the bottom. All those headers and footers are required if emailing it (as a PDF). I bet they didn't explain that.

To see examples of the headers and Statement of Truth, look at defences from the first 6 months of this year, or from 2024. Posted thousands of times here in the past decade.

Car1980

A bit harsh! 😂
Nothing wrong with using a bit of initiative!

Coupon-mad

Car1980 said:

A bit harsh! 😂
Nothing wrong with using a bit of initiative!

Just trying to quickly step in, to focus the OP and point out that the various CNBC email addresses are already included in the Template Defence first post.

I doubt the helpline explained that the OP can just attach a PDF defence as long as it's signed and dated under a Statement of Truth.