Company vehicle designation on P11d

Channel_tunnel

This is a long (4 year) issue I have been going through regarding what I consider to be my employers 3rd party HR companies designation of a Ford Transit custom double cab in van as a passenger carrying vehicle. This has resulted in an £18000 tax bill for the 3 years I was given this vehicle from 2021-2024.
From the start I had been aware of the Coca Cola vs HMRC court case where rear seats had been added to the rear of Coca Cola engineers VW Transporters which HMRC deemed, and won, the legal case that it made them designated as passenger carrying vehicles.
With that in mind, I have from day 1 sort to clarify the situation and, amongst other things have  literature from Ford describing these vehicles as commercial for the purposes of 'benefit in kind'. I also have a letter from HMRC in 2022 confirming the vehicle as a commercial for BIK purposes. And I spent many wasted hours on HMRCs helpline asking for clarification of the vehicles status. Not one person on the HMRC helpline could even understand the problem, never mind help. They kept referring me to the descriptions for PICK UPS!
However my problem, which I subsequently found out, was that HMRC will ONLY base the designation of my company car from the P11d's that have been submitted and NOWHERE else. None of the above, including a letter from HMRC themselves has ANY weight.
Therefor because the 3rd party HR company (who my employers used) insist that a Ford Transit DCIV is a passenger carrying vehicle I am left to pay this crippling tax demand.
I have appealed to HMRC twice and they have just come back and said they will not make a decision either way and that it is between me and my employer.
So, as a last resort, my questions are can I make my own P11d submissions as an employed person? Can I take the responsibility of designating this vehicle as a commercial for BIK? Or can an accountant on my behalf? 
Thank you if youve made it this far.
Any advise gratefully received. 

Hoenir

Channel_tunnel said:

From the start I had been aware of the Coca Cola vs HMRC court case where rear seats had been added to the rear of Coca Cola engineers VW Transporters which HMRC deemed, and won, the legal case that it made them designated as passenger carrying vehicles.
With that in mind, I have from day 1 sort to clarify the situation 

Then your employer is not going to risk the wrath of the HMRC by filing further incorrect P11d forms. The penalties for which are considerable and easily run into many thousands of pounds. Seems a decision has been reached that doesn't require further clarification. 

Companies are entirely responsible for the completion and submission of P11d form's.  Employers incurring a Class 1a NIC liability on the value of employee benefits declared. 

Have you obtained a transcript of the Court's judgement?  Will explain in full the reasoning behind the decision. No amount of arguing your personal opinion is going to overrule it, 

mybestattempt

Channel_tunnel said:

This is a long (4 year) issue I have been going through regarding what I consider to be my employers 3rd party HR companies designation of a Ford Transit custom double cab in van as a passenger carrying vehicle. This has resulted in an £18000 tax bill for the 3 years I was given this vehicle from 2021-2024.
From the start I had been aware of the Coca Cola vs HMRC court case where rear seats had been added to the rear of Coca Cola engineers VW Transporters which HMRC deemed, and won, the legal case that it made them designated as passenger carrying vehicles.
With that in mind, I have from day 1 sort to clarify the situation and, amongst other things have  literature from Ford describing these vehicles as commercial for the purposes of 'benefit in kind'. I also have a letter from HMRC in 2022 confirming the vehicle as a commercial for BIK purposes. And I spent many wasted hours on HMRCs helpline asking for clarification of the vehicles status. Not one person on the HMRC helpline could even understand the problem, never mind help. They kept referring me to the descriptions for PICK UPS!
However my problem, which I subsequently found out, was that HMRC will ONLY base the designation of my company car from the P11d's that have been submitted and NOWHERE else. None of the above, including a letter from HMRC themselves has ANY weight.
Therefor because the 3rd party HR company (who my employers used) insist that a Ford Transit DCIV is a passenger carrying vehicle I am left to pay this crippling tax demand.
I have appealed to HMRC twice and they have just come back and said they will not make a decision either way and that it is between me and my employer.
So, as a last resort, my questions are can I make my own P11d submissions as an employed person? Can I take the responsibility of designating this vehicle as a commercial for BIK? Or can an accountant on my behalf? 
Thank you if youve made it this far.
Any advise gratefully received. 

The test for benefit in kind isn't whether it's a commercial vehicle, it's whether the vehicle is a van.

This official HMRC guidance explains what is a van as defined by the legislation at Section115 of  ITEPA 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim22725 


My understanding of the Coca-Cola decision by the Court of Appeal was that the vehicles were not "primarily suited for the conveyance of goods or burden" because they could carry both equipment and passengers and so they were not vans.

My reading of the specification for the Ford Transit DCVI is that it can carry six of more passengers as well as equipment.

Clearly, it seems your employer accepts the third party HR company's view that the vehicle is not a van because it can carry both equipment and passengers.

It's just my view but I don't think your vehicle is a van in terms of the legislation and caselaw so I think you would have great difficulty persuading your employer, HMRC or a Tax Tribunal that the vehicle is a van.

sheramber

Ford’s description of the tax liability  appears to be at odds with HMRC ruling. 

Perhaps you should take it up with Ford. 

Hoenir

sheramber said:

Perhaps you should take it up with Ford. 

To achieve what?  Ranting isn't going to change the established legal view. 

sheramber

Hoenir said:

sheramber said:

Perhaps you should take it up with Ford. 

To achieve what?  Ranting isn't going to change the established legal view. 

To make the OP feel better by advising Ford they misled him. 

Hoenir

sheramber said:

Hoenir said:

sheramber said:

Perhaps you should take it up with Ford. 

To achieve what?  Ranting isn't going to change the established legal view. 

To make the OP feel better by advising Ford they misled him. 

This used to be a Money Saving Site. Now it's more about promoting the waste of time and indirectly raising costs for everyone. 

DullGreyGuy

Channel_tunnel said:

With that in mind, I have from day 1 sort to clarify the situation and, amongst other things have  literature from Ford describing these vehicles as commercial for the purposes of 'benefit in kind'. 

Defining a vehicle as "commercial" or not has no bearing on BIK, the question is simply if it meets HMRCs definition of a van or not. 

Do you have a link to this Ford materials? Could be you have misinterpreted it and/or they are using language thats not relevant to Van -v- Car BIK to intentionally confuse. 

Hoenir

DullGreyGuy said:

Channel_tunnel said:

With that in mind, I have from day 1 sort to clarify the situation and, amongst other things have  literature from Ford describing these vehicles as commercial for the purposes of 'benefit in kind'. 

Defining a vehicle as "commercial" or not has no bearing on BIK, the question is simply if it meets HMRCs definition of a van or not. 

Do you have a link to this Ford materials? Could be you have misinterpreted it and/or they are using language thats not relevant to Van -v- Car BIK to intentionally confuse. 

Somebody at Coca Cola probably thought that they had exploited a loop hole whereby an employee could be provided with a commercial vehicle suitable for private use and avoid BIK. Hence the court case.  The transcript of the ruling by the judge is the key. Sets the precedent for this and similar vehicles. 

Channel_tunnel

To answer a few things.

I have a copy of Ford literature that describes all the Transit Custom range as commercial for bik. And furthermore throughout my use of the vehicle every contact I had with a Ford dealer sales/employee still insisted that it was such, and as far as I know are still doing so.

My downfall in all this is not that I tried to mislead anyone in designating the vehicle as something it was not to gain financially, it was that I was not aware that HMRC will go off the P11d and ONLY the P11d regardless of what as gone before. So when I wrote to them asking to clarify my situation, I naively assumed that a reply saying that my ACTUAL vehicle was a commercial for the purposes of bik was final. The fact is that it wasnt worth the paper it was written on because the submitter of my P11d thought differently.

I would wager that I am the only person who was provided with these vans as company cars who has actually been taxed as a passenger carrying vehicle. I could have bought the vehicle with the amount of tax I have had to pay.

I have given up on trying to get my employer or 3rd party HR company to do anything and my question was whether it was possible for ME to submit a P11d? Thereby removing the responsibility from either of them.  

Isthisforreal99

Channel_tunnel said:

To answer a few things.

I have a copy of Ford literature that describes all the Transit Custom range as commercial for bik. And furthermore throughout my use of the vehicle every contact I had with a Ford dealer sales/employee still insisted that it was such, and as far as I know are still doing so.

My downfall in all this is not that I tried to mislead anyone in designating the vehicle as something it was not to gain financially, it was that I was not aware that HMRC will go off the P11d and ONLY the P11d regardless of what as gone before. So when I wrote to them asking to clarify my situation, I naively assumed that a reply saying that my ACTUAL vehicle was a commercial for the purposes of bik was final. The fact is that it wasnt worth the paper it was written on because the submitter of my P11d thought differently.

I would wager that I am the only person who was provided with these vans as company cars who has actually been taxed as a passenger carrying vehicle. I could have bought the vehicle with the amount of tax I have had to pay.

I have given up on trying to get my employer or 3rd party HR company to do anything and my question was whether it was possible for ME to submit a P11d? Thereby removing the responsibility from either of them.  

What on earth makes you think you can complete a P11d of your own. It is a form only an employer can complete.

As an aside you do realise Ford don't write tax legislation and what they say is irrelevant.