Santander free forever bank account changes

noitsnotme

solidpro said:

This seems like the age old question of the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. My guess is that buried in some small print that nobody spotted, somewhere in a 2015 transfer of the product branding - not the actual accounts, there was some wording that tries to supercede their original, and repeated 'free forever' wording all the way up to the first time they did this in 2012, which they probably worked out a way where in 2015 they could do something that in another 10 years they could rely on in 'the letter of the law' in case against someone representing themselves and possibly unprepared. 

Right now, nobody seems to know if what happened in 2015 inserts this weird wording they now appear to be relying on.

This however, as I think anyone who cares that much is not in the spirit of the law that it's the same bank, the same service, the same people and in many cases the same exact product as when agreeing the contract back in 2008 or whenever. I had the same account number, sort code, and so on as I have now, and forcing me to change all that so they can start charging me for £10 a month for the exact same (actually slightly worse) service is completely against the spirit of the law.

And their integrity. I'm a straight up businessperson and I stand by my word and my contract. When someone tries to renege on that, I do what a 1000 businesses have done with serial bankrupters and deal-breakers like Donald Trump and decided to never ever do business with them ever again.

Their original offer was only supposed to change if there had been a huge change in banking regulations or the law - neither of which have occured. God knows why they want to pick a fight with all these very very very loyal customers - even if they're not making much out of it, the amount of people carrying their brand via their business is worth a lot, especially when transferring bank account has never been easier and there are other banks offering (for the time being) free business banking.

They obviously don't need my business reserves, so if they want to rattle my cage, I'll take those sums elsewhere.

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

solidpro

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

noitsnotme

solidpro said:

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

Because you insinuated that Santander’s reputation would be damaged by all this and I was attempting to point out that the majority of Santander’s customers won’t care, therefore their reputation is unlikely to be tarnished to the extent you think it will.

Section62

noitsnotme said:

solidpro said:

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

Because you insinuated that Santander’s reputation would be damaged by all this and I was attempting to point out that the majority of Santander’s customers won’t care, therefore their reputation is unlikely to be tarnished to the extent you think it will.

You might have a point if it was only Santander customers that mattered.  But the reality is the 'court of public opinion' (if not the ombudsman) will determine how this story pans out (if at all).

As I said about a dozen pages ago..... 'optics'.

Lightning360

Section62 said:

noitsnotme said:

solidpro said:

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

Because you insinuated that Santander’s reputation would be damaged by all this and I was attempting to point out that the majority of Santander’s customers won’t care, therefore their reputation is unlikely to be tarnished to the extent you think it will.

You might have a point if it was only Santander customers that mattered.  But the reality is the 'court of public opinion' (if not the ombudsman) will determine how this story pans out (if at all).

As I said about a dozen pages ago..... 'optics'.

If Santander customers don't care, then the public won't care. It really isn't the end of the world anyway if businesses end up getting charged some extra money.

noitsnotme

Section62 said:

noitsnotme said:

solidpro said:

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

Because you insinuated that Santander’s reputation would be damaged by all this and I was attempting to point out that the majority of Santander’s customers won’t care, therefore their reputation is unlikely to be tarnished to the extent you think it will.

You might have a point if it was only Santander customers that mattered.  But the reality is the 'court of public opinion' (if not the ombudsman) will determine how this story pans out (if at all).

As I said about a dozen pages ago..... 'optics'.

I would be surprised if many more people than those that are actually affected by this change, care about it, existing Santander customers or not.  In my humble opinion, the amount of people that decide never to bank with Santander after reading about this will be a tiny drop in Santander’s massive ocean.  Rightly or wrongly, the masses care less about something that affects business owners because it will never affect them (there are many more personal customers than business customers).

Section62

Lightning360 said:

Section62 said:

noitsnotme said:

solidpro said:

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

Because you insinuated that Santander’s reputation would be damaged by all this and I was attempting to point out that the majority of Santander’s customers won’t care, therefore their reputation is unlikely to be tarnished to the extent you think it will.

You might have a point if it was only Santander customers that mattered.  But the reality is the 'court of public opinion' (if not the ombudsman) will determine how this story pans out (if at all).

As I said about a dozen pages ago..... 'optics'.

If Santander customers don't care, then the public won't care.

How many Coutts customers cared?

Lightning360 said:

It really isn't the end of the world anyway if businesses end up getting charged some extra money.

Cost of living crisis passing you by?

Lightning360

Section62 said:

Lightning360 said:

Section62 said:

noitsnotme said:

solidpro said:

noitsnotme said:

Most Santander personal customers won’t give a hoot about business customers getting shafted.   I don’t think it will have the impact on their brand you think it will. And I don’t think all the business customers who leave will make even the tiniest dent in Santander’s business.

I run a business but don’t bank with Santander for that.  I do have personal accounts with Santander but won’t be moving them.  This decision of theirs doesn’t change my view of Santander.  I’m pretty sure it won’t change the view of the majority of their personal customers either.

I'm not sure what 'not caring', not having a business account with Santander and having a personal one has to do with this at all.

Because you insinuated that Santander’s reputation would be damaged by all this and I was attempting to point out that the majority of Santander’s customers won’t care, therefore their reputation is unlikely to be tarnished to the extent you think it will.

You might have a point if it was only Santander customers that mattered.  But the reality is the 'court of public opinion' (if not the ombudsman) will determine how this story pans out (if at all).

As I said about a dozen pages ago..... 'optics'.

If Santander customers don't care, then the public won't care.

How many Coutts customers cared?

Lightning360 said:

It really isn't the end of the world anyway if businesses end up getting charged some extra money.

Cost of living crisis passing you by?

If a bit of extra money is impacting a business that much, then just move banks. 

And if this fee is impacting a business that much, then something is clearly going very wrong for that business already.

gt94sss2

Smurrfmo said:

clairec666 said:

 Everyone's speculating on whether Santander should be able to do this, and while we all agree that it's all morally wrong, we need someone with specific legal expertise to confirm that it's legally wrong. 

Well as well as being an affected customer I am a lawyer and I can't see how it is legally right.  The legal reasoning and provision used appears to have more holes than a colander when set against the explicit promise made and the very restricted circumstances in which that promise could ever be broken (none of which apply).  But only an Ombudsman can definitively rule on this issue or indeed the courts.  If I was the lawyer who signed this off at Santander I would be a bit worried as the backlash will only grow, as it did last time they tried this.    

For those considering using the Financial Ombudsman for issues in future, its worth noting that the Government has just issued a new consultation reviewing their future powers that you may want to respond too.

It includes a proposal that "the FOS will be required to find that a firm’s conduct is fair and reasonable where it has complied with relevant FCA rules"

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6618175/review-of-the-financial-ombudsman-service

Smurrfmo

https://www.santander.co.uk/assets/s3fs-public/AD_documents/business_banking_general_terms_conditions_anb90361jul23hcd_lr_3.pdf

The infamous section E14 relied on by Santander is in the above general business terms, starting on page 27.  On page 29 is the condition that Santander are trying to rely on: the tight to convert one account type to another.  But a right to convert a forever fee free current account to a fee paying account using this condition is a very big stretch.  The Santander claim that the free forever promise was not carried over in 2015 is as shonky as relying on section E14. How they can claim this gets around the promise of free business banking forever when that promise did now allow a get out for just changing the terms or account type I am struggling to see.  I have little doubt that the free forever promise is a core term that cannot be overridden in this way.