First direct frustrations

masonic

lindabea said:

Incidentally, I can also add that it took FD 4 hours before they sent me a text msg to call the customer centre, and then after  going through security questions, I was put through to the fraud team, but it was some 20 mins before they answered.  I then had to go through security questions again.  How is that a productive use of time.  No wonder we have to endure long wait times when bank staff are engaged in such futile exercises.  

Go figure. I called NS&I today. After a very long, unproductive exchange with an AI voice, I eventually broke through with a fairly firm demand to speak to a human. Then I was asked to dial in my NS&I number and PIN. Once I did that, I was transferred. Guess what I was asked for next?

lindabea

masonic said:

lindabea said:

masonic said:

There's not really an excuse for a delay in releasing the payment once the fraud team are satisfied with the transaction.

If you'd previously set up the account in question and obtained a Confirmation Of Payee match, plus a history of prior payments, then it is puzzling why they would flag a subsequent transaction. I've never experienced this, except when sending a £1 test payment, then a larger amount in quick succession (not even that in recent times). With many more savings accounts now enrolled in COP, there should be a substantial reduction in this sort of thing. Would still expect it though for non-COP matched transactions, or those matched to a third party.

In terms of who to blame, that would be the regulator and legislators, who have set the hurdles banks need to go to in order to discharge their liability. You cannot expect banks not to do this.

Masonic, your first paragraph expresses my sentiments exactly.  I also agree with you that it is the regulators that are to blame in as much that they set unrealistic and badly drawn procedures without much thought,  However, it is the banks who exercise those procedures, and what I'm saying, is that they should use some common sense before.  Unfortunately, this is what is lacking.  In my experience, having said to the fraud lady who took my call that it is my own account and it is being made with my own discretion and no one else, she still had to go through a scripted series of questions which was a complete waste of both our time.  And why it then took a day to release the payment is also beyond contempt.     

You cannot reasonably blame the bank for this. The scripted questions have been devised based on the level of proof needed by the regulator that the bank took all reasonable steps to prevent a fraud taking place. If banks do not comply, then they have to pay out. It is simply not worth the risk to have individual members of staff making judgement calls. Unfortunately, there is no opt-out where you can absolve them of liability because you know for sure the transaction is safe. So I fear your anger is misdirected and your actions ultimately unproductive. Moving banks is unlikely to improve your experience (save for the delay in the release of the payment).

I accept the point you're making, but I still expect bank staff to use some common sense judgement.  After all, it is their own implemented algorithms that cause a payment to be stopped.  I'm sure there are times when it is very obvious that a transaction is genuine and  there is no reason for concern.  So why stop such transactions.  When I put this question to FD following a formal complaint, (which incidentally paid me £70 compensation), they said that it is an automatic stop and that they can't do anything about it.  They also said that they cannot give me a guarantee that they may not stop future payments.     

As to moving banks, well there are some banks who are better than others.  MY main bank for instance,(been with them several years) never stopped a payment.  Been with Santander and I can say they are also very quick at stopping payments for no reason to raise any alarms.  Perhaps it's because they been fined several times that makes them become over-cautious.  

DullGreyGuy

I used to pay my NW CC by my Barclays Debit Card, went 4 years or so without problem and then for about 15 months the Barclays Fraud team would stop it as a suspicious payment. I mean it was around 2009 so RBS Group could have been as dodgy back then but still. 

Kept being told it wouldnt happen again, the system "learns" but it didnt. Stopped using the NW card after 15 months so dont know how long it would have gone on for. 

born_again

lindabea said:

Masonic - thank you for your reply. and I accept your point  Yes I do understand that some people are gullible and need protection, but the point I'm making and what I cannot accept, is when bank staff do not use their own initiative to save everybody's time - theirs and mine. 

Such as in my case - I was transferring the money back to my own account. An account that with some checking, FD could clearly see that the account was in my name and already set up on my FD account and would be familiar to them. So I do not see the need to raise any suspicion about being a fraudulent transaction.  In all, I probably had to answer several questions which took more than 10 mins on the phone and nearly a whole day to then release the payment.    I know it's not much, but do I dare mention that I lost a day's interest in the process    How is that justification.

Clearly never used banks system.
DD's are a separate system, so would not be in their face.

Have you never heard that fraudsters ask you to transfer funds to one of your own accounts & then remove the funds from there?

lindabea

masonic said:

lindabea said:

Incidentally, I can also add that it took FD 4 hours before they sent me a text msg to call the customer centre, and then after  going through security questions, I was put through to the fraud team, but it was some 20 mins before they answered.  I then had to go through security questions again.  How is that a productive use of time.  No wonder we have to endure long wait times when bank staff are engaged in such futile exercises.  

Go figure. I called NS&I today. After a very long, unproductive exchange with an AI voice, I eventually broke through with a fairly firm demand to speak to a human. Then I was asked to dial in my NS&I number and PIN. Once I did that, I was transferred. Guess what I was asked for next?

I'm guessing they asked for your name. And no doubt they cut you off when you told them it is MASONIC  LOL

masonic

lindabea said:

masonic said:

lindabea said:

masonic said:

There's not really an excuse for a delay in releasing the payment once the fraud team are satisfied with the transaction.

If you'd previously set up the account in question and obtained a Confirmation Of Payee match, plus a history of prior payments, then it is puzzling why they would flag a subsequent transaction. I've never experienced this, except when sending a £1 test payment, then a larger amount in quick succession (not even that in recent times). With many more savings accounts now enrolled in COP, there should be a substantial reduction in this sort of thing. Would still expect it though for non-COP matched transactions, or those matched to a third party.

In terms of who to blame, that would be the regulator and legislators, who have set the hurdles banks need to go to in order to discharge their liability. You cannot expect banks not to do this.

Masonic, your first paragraph expresses my sentiments exactly.  I also agree with you that it is the regulators that are to blame in as much that they set unrealistic and badly drawn procedures without much thought,  However, it is the banks who exercise those procedures, and what I'm saying, is that they should use some common sense before.  Unfortunately, this is what is lacking.  In my experience, having said to the fraud lady who took my call that it is my own account and it is being made with my own discretion and no one else, she still had to go through a scripted series of questions which was a complete waste of both our time.  And why it then took a day to release the payment is also beyond contempt.     

You cannot reasonably blame the bank for this. The scripted questions have been devised based on the level of proof needed by the regulator that the bank took all reasonable steps to prevent a fraud taking place. If banks do not comply, then they have to pay out. It is simply not worth the risk to have individual members of staff making judgement calls. Unfortunately, there is no opt-out where you can absolve them of liability because you know for sure the transaction is safe. So I fear your anger is misdirected and your actions ultimately unproductive. Moving banks is unlikely to improve your experience (save for the delay in the release of the payment).

I accept the point you're making, but I still expect bank staff to use some common sense judgement.  After all, it is their own implemented algorithms that cause a payment to be stopped.  I'm sure there are times when it is very obvious that a transaction is genuine and  there is no reason for concern.  So why stop such transactions.  When I put this question to FD following a formal complaint, (which incidentally paid me £70 compensation), they said that it is an automatic stop and that they can't do anything about it.  They also said that they cannot give me a guarantee that they may not stop future payments.     

As to moving banks, well there are some banks who are better than others.  MY main bank for instance,(been with them several years) never stopped a payment.  Been with Santander and I can say they are also very quick at stopping payments for no reason to raise any alarms.  Perhaps it's because they been fined several times that makes them become over-cautious.  

I don't think it is fair to blame members of staff. You don't know what information they are able to access, but they certainly won't be in possession of all of the facts the customer has. Also, there is no such thing as common sense. This is why we are in the situation we are in. Humans are inherently fallible. They have lives outside of work and things that happen to them can affect their judgement. That is why rigid controls are put in place by businesses.

I'm also fortunate that my main bank, which I have used for a couple of decades as my main account, hasn't stopped any payments I've made in the last 8+ years, and I've made a wide variety of payments. When it previously did stop a payment, they phoned me within a few minutes, the call lasted less than 5 minutes and it was all sorted. It is probably because of my long term usage that my experience has been so good, because your experience of the same bank clearly differs. Like you, I have had quite a bit of trouble with Santander (though not recently), and LBG have also been a right pain, both Lloyds and Halifax. Chase was pretty terrible for a time, and then I stopped using them for other reasons. Other current accounts I hold have had too little activity to pass judgement. But I expect others' experiences will be different with those too.

masonic

lindabea said:

masonic said:

lindabea said:

Incidentally, I can also add that it took FD 4 hours before they sent me a text msg to call the customer centre, and then after  going through security questions, I was put through to the fraud team, but it was some 20 mins before they answered.  I then had to go through security questions again.  How is that a productive use of time.  No wonder we have to endure long wait times when bank staff are engaged in such futile exercises.  

Go figure. I called NS&I today. After a very long, unproductive exchange with an AI voice, I eventually broke through with a fairly firm demand to speak to a human. Then I was asked to dial in my NS&I number and PIN. Once I did that, I was transferred. Guess what I was asked for next?

I'm guessing they asked for your name. And no doubt they cut you off when you told them it is MASONIC  LOL

They asked for my NS&I number. The one I just keyed in and was accepted by the automated system, seconds earlier. But I did not make a fuss as it is not the staff member's fault.

lindabea

Yes very frustrating.  I had something similar.  I rang my credit card company, key in my 16 digit number before being put through to a human.  I then get asked for my 16 digit number.  It's enough to test your patience.  But please help me out here to save my sanity.  You say you don't make a fuss and you don't blame the staff, (I admire your patience) so what do you think is the cause of so much incompetence.  As I said earlier, such incompetence is not only with banks these days, but with many organisations, such as utility companies, surgeries, hospitals, care homes.  In fact, I can't name any company that has any credibility going for it.  Absolute disgrace.    

lindabea

And do you know what else I find annoying... They all love to blow their own trumpet in TV commercials and other media.  How wonderful they are and how better they are than their competitors.  And the so called customer surveys ranking.  FD apparently have some 89% of customer satisfaction.  Don't see why or how.  I wouldn't give them anything greater than 40%  In their app for instance, there is nothing where I can go to show me a list of future payments.  I have to go into each individual payee (labelled delete payee) to see if I have set up a payment.  What a load of rubbish and a pathetic outdated app they have.  As you said earlier, in reality all banks are as bad as each other and it's us customers who suffer the consequences of their inept standards..  

boingy

I'm fine with banks applying these sorts of measures to help protect us but I'm not fine with the ridiculous procedure for unlocking the money. It should not take 15 or 20 minutes of cross-examination to be able to proceed. Some of the questions I've been asked are ludicrous. It should be enough to verify who we are and then for us to confirm that we want to proceed with the payment. If that payment the turns out to be fraudulent then it's our fault, not the bank's and that should be reflected in any future claim I attempt to make. I know they are subject to regulations but those regulations only specify that they need safeguards, not that they need to interrogate us to the nth degree.

At present it feels like we are being treated like children and/or scammers. The most ridiculous yet amusing question I was asked was "Are you feeling more stressed than usual today?" My true reply to that is unprintable but I managed to give them the answer their system wanted to hear. The staff have to stick to the script but often it seems that script has been written by a fool. Most customers are honest and most payments are legitimate.

So the principle is good but the balance is wrong.