PCN from Saba for 6 minutes and 20 seconds!

eldn

Thank you all for your helpful threads, I read them all. I wanted to double check if the following case should be fought differently to be quicker or just follow the guidelines in the newbies thread.

The driver went into the wrong parking as the entrance to the correct parking was 5 meters further. They turned into the wrong parking. They parked the car in a "Station Car Park" managed by Saba UK. They took their infant out from the car seat and then noticed the signage. They realised it was the wrong parking. They immediately put back the child in the car seat and left. In total, they spent 6 minutes and 20 seconds, this includes entering, finding a space, removing child from car seat, unfolding pram, reading signage, folding pram, putting child safely in car seat, etc. You get the story... a few things for them to do before being able to leave. The driver never left the car park, only out of the car, read the sign a few meters away and headed back to car and left.

RK still received a PCN as the car park is managed by ANPR. I understand there is in general a 5 minute "grace period" to consider the terms so if you add the fact that there was a small child and the signage couldn't be read easily from within the car, is there any way to fight this PCN from that angle rather than the usual one you recommend in the threads? Would it be faster or just a waste of time?

Thanks.
El

fisherjim

Follow the guidelines these are greedy scammers they won't just fold where they think they can extort money.

A "grace period" of 5 minutes is a minimum according to the joint COP, but what every day motorist would know that a COP even existed, was it mentioned on the signage?

You did exactly what would be expected under the circumstances.

Thorndorise

Slightly different situation, but worth a read so you get a 'feel' for the levels that companies such as SABA will go to in getting money out of you....btw, you did nothing wrong and no PCN should have been issued.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6608775/saba-penalty-notice-mostly-for-information#latest

eldn

fisherjim said:

Follow the guidelines these are greedy scammers they won't just fold where they think they can extort money.

A "grace period" of 5 minutes is a minimum according to the joint COP, but what every day motorist would know that a COP even existed, was it mentioned on the signage?

You did exactly what would be expected under the circumstances.

Thanks - I will follow the templates then. The driver can't recall any mention of grace period on the signage unfortunately, just thought it was something expected in general. But with those guys, I'm not expecting them to respect it, or still fine even for a few seconds...

Thorndorise said:

Slightly different situation, but worth a read so you get a 'feel' for the levels that companies such as SABA will go to in getting money out of you....btw, you did nothing wrong and no PCN should have been issued.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6608775/saba-penalty-notice-mostly-for-information#latest

Wow... they are really disgusting. I'm still new to this world as I never had a PCN myself so after reading the thread you posted, I went to check what is "Railway Byelaws" and interestingly, I found a recent reply under FOI where TfL confirms that "Saba UK are not subject to TfL Byelaws, as Saba UK operate under private land enforcement and under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012"  but on the thread, they claim that their PCN is under the "Railway Byelaws".

Unless I'm mixing up things, they seem to have lied then.
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0703-2526

Thorndorise

Very interesting, although that answer on TFL doesn't fully answer the questions asked...

The question was "Please confirm whether the North Greenwich Station Car Park (postcode SE10 0PH), currently managed by Saba Park Services UK Ltd on behalf of TTL Properties Limited, remains subject to the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011."

And the answer was "No, Saba UK are not subject to TfL Byelaws, as Saba UK operate under private land enforcement and under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012."

Which may be me being pedantic - but they haven't stated that the land on which SABA operated isn't governed by the byelaws, merely that SABA aren't bound...

Also, looking online I assume the (poorly named) 'Station' car park is not signposted at the entrance as private land or anything to that effect.



What I surmise from this is that it is in fact TFL land/station land, and therefore subject to byelaws (I'm no expert on this so would ask someone like @kryten3000 with his experience...)

Looking into the car park (going in doesn't help as the signs are from 2017 capture), I can see the same NCP signs from 2017 still up, possibly just overstickered like the one above.



Zooming in, I can't actually see a single sign up in the car park!

Also note the invite to park on the first pic, "This car park is open to the general public" - which again (no expert) would make me think it's not private land and is subject to byelaws...

kryten3000

Saba are making it up as they go along.  See my thread about a recent PCN at Bletchley railway station. They're telling me that the PCN is being managed by a third party and they can't help me further.

ChirpyChicken

kryten3000 said:

Saba are making it up as they go along.  See my thread about a recent PCN at Bletchley railway station. They're telling me that the PCN is being managed by a third party and they can't help me further.

Something similar with parkzone limited chasing a keeper when a driver appealed
They soon changed their tune when they were told injunction action would be commenced 

doubledotcom

I made an FoI request to TfL about the land at this station. Their first response was a fob-off, as you can see:

Dear doubledotcom,

Our ref: FOI-0703-2526

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 21 May 2025 asking for information about North Greenwich Station Car Park.

Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and our information access policy. 

I can confirm that we do hold the information you require. You asked:

Please confirm whether the North Greenwich Station Car Park (postcode SE10 0PH), currently managed by Saba Park Services UK Ltd on behalf of TTL Properties Limited, remains subject to the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011. If the site was ever subject to those byelaws and they have since been revoked or superseded, please provide details of the revocation or modification.

No, Saba UK are not subject to TfL Byelaws, as Saba UK operate under private land enforcement and under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

If you are not satisfied with this response please see the attached information sheet for details of your right to appeal.

Yours sincerely,

Tahsin Prima

FOI Case Officer

General Counsel

Transport for London

Please confirm whether the North Greenwich Station Car Park (postcode SE10 0PH), currently managed by Saba Park Services UK Ltd on behalf of TTL Properties Limited, remains subject to the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011. If the site was ever subject to those byelaws and they have since been revoked or superseded, please provide details of the revocation or modification.

You will get the gist of their initial response from my escalatory response:

Subject: Request for Internal Review – FOI-0703-2526 (North Greenwich Station Car Park)

Dear FOI Team,

I am writing to request an internal review of your response to my FOI request (reference FOI-0703-2526), regarding the status of North Greenwich Station Car Park and whether it remains subject to the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011.

Your response states:

“No, Saba UK are not subject to TfL Byelaws, as Saba UK operate under private land enforcement and under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.”

This is an evasive and legally inadequate answer that does not address the substance of the request. The question was not whether Saba UK chooses to enforce parking under PoFA, but whether the land itself at North Greenwich Station remains subject to TfL Railway Byelaws 2011, as made under the Greater London Authority Act 1999.

My request was specific and factual. It sought:

• Confirmation of whether byelaws currently apply to the land at SE10 0PH;
• If they do not apply, whether and when they were formally revoked or superseded, and by what legal or administrative mechanism.

Your answer did not provide this. It simply restated the operator’s current enforcement choice, which is legally irrelevant to the land’s status under PoFA 2012 Schedule 4.

For the record, unless and until TfL formally revokes its byelaws over a specific site, or unless the site is reclassified through a published legal instrument, that land remains subject to statutory control. A contractor’s self-declared reliance on civil enforcement does not alter the legal classification of the land.

I therefore request the following as part of this internal review:

1. A proper response confirming the legal status of the land, not the practices of the contractor;
2. Copies or references to any documents or orders showing revocation, disapplication or amendment of the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011 as they apply to North Greenwich Station Car Park;
3. An explanation of why my original question was not properly addressed.

If you cannot provide evidence of revocation or reclassification, you must confirm that the land remains subject to the 2011 Byelaws.

Yours sincerely,

doubledotcom

After some time, they eventually came back with the following:

Dear doubledotcom,

 I am contacting you in relation to your request for an internal review concerning the response provided to FOI-0703-2526. Following your email of 29 May a review has been carried out by an independent review panel (‘the panel’) consisting of individuals who were not involved in the handling of your request.

To confirm, your original request asked for the following -

Please confirm whether the North Greenwich Station Car Park (postcode SE10 0PH), currently managed by Saba Park Services UK Ltd on behalf of TTL Properties Limited, remains subject to the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011. If the site was ever subject to those byelaws and they have since been revoked or superseded, please provide details of the revocation or modification.

Following the response to FOI-0703-2526 your subsequent email of 29 May stated -

This is an evasive and legally inadequate answer that does not address the substance of the request. The question was not whether Saba UK chooses to enforce parking under PoFA, but whether the land itself at North Greenwich Station remains subject to TfL Railway Byelaws 2011, as made under the Greater London Authority Act 1999.My request was specific and factual. It sought:Confirmation of whether byelaws currently apply to the land at SE10 0PH;If they do not apply, whether and when they were formally revoked or superseded, and by what legal or administrative mechanism.Your answer did not provide this. It simply restated the operator’s current enforcement choice, which is legally irrelevant to the land’s status under PoFA 2012 Schedule 4.For the record, unless and until TfL formally revokes its byelaws over a specific site, or unless the site is reclassified through a published legal instrument, that land remains subject to statutory control. A contractor’s self-declared reliance on civil enforcement does not alter the legal classification of the land.I therefore request the following as part of this internal review:A proper response confirming the legal status of the land, not the practices of the contractor;Copies or references to any documents or orders showing revocation, disapplication or amendment of the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011 as they apply to North Greenwich Station Car Park;An explanation of why my original question was not properly addressed.

The panel have liaised with the appropriate subject matter experts and we have been unable to identify the specific information you seek in the contract that we hold with SABA UK. Additionally our legal team have liaised with SABA UK and they have also been unsuccessful in locating recorded confirmation of what you seek. Therefore on the balance of probabilities the panel agree that it’s likely the information is not held.  Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience that may have been caused.

With respect of the Byelaws the contract with SABA UK states the following -

 - 21. Compliance with Policies and Law

21.1.2 shall provide the Services in compliance with and shall ensure that the Service Provider's Personnel comply with all requirements of all Acts of Parliament, statutory instruments, court orders, regulations, directives, European Community decisions (insofar as legally binding), bye-laws, treaties and other regulatory requirements relevant to either or both of the Service Provider's or the Authority's business, from time to time in force which are or may become applicable to the Services. The Service Provider shall promptly notify the Authority if the Service Provider is required to make any change to the Services for the purposes of complying with its obligations under this Clause 21.1.2;

SCHEDULE 9 – FORM OF COLLATERAL WARRANTY

1.3 shall comply with all the requirements of any Act of Parliament, Statutory Instrument or Order or any other regulation having the force of law or bye-law and all regulatory requirements relevant to the Subcontractor's business and/or the Authority's business from time to time in force which are or may become applicable to the Subcontract Services;

The panel hope the above information provides satisfactory clarification, however if you are dissatisfied with the internal review actions to date please do not hesitate to contact me or alternately you can refer the matter to the independent authority responsible for enforcing the Freedom of Information Act

Yours sincerely

 Emma FlintPrincipal Information Access AdviserFOI Case Management TeamTransport for London

foi@tfl.gov.uk

Now the crucial point is that, they did not deny that byelaws still apply to the location and they confirmed that there is no evidence of what I sought, which was whether the TfL byelaws that applied to the land before it was transferred to their "land controlling company TTL Properties Limited, had ever been revoked or superseded.

This is crucial because SABA will produce a contract with TTL Properties Ltd as the "landowner" and claim it is private property. However, just like at Stansted or Gatwick where there are private business operating on land that is under statutory control, they cannot rely on PoFA to hold the Keeper liable. Likewise, even though TfL have transferred title to the land to their wholly owned land management company TTL Properties Ltd, the bylaws that apply to the land are still in effect and so, there is no Keeper liability.

Castle

This is from December 2018 and North Greenwich is listed here.
Tube station car parks - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London - WhatDoTheyKnow

Coupon-mad

Are TFL saying that they DON'T KNOW whether a site falls under Railway Byelaws and that they don't know how to find out?!

doubledotcom

Coupon-mad said:

Are TFL saying that they DON'T KNOW whether a site falls under Railway Byelaws and that they don't know how to find out?!

You can see from their answers  that they are obfuscating uncomfortable truths. They keep trying to deflect to their contract with SABA which has nothing to do with the FoI request.

All the land that TfL owned (or owned before they transferred it to their land management company, TTL Properties Ltd) was originally covered by byelaws as made under the Greater London Authority Act 1999.

Without evidence of revocation, disapplication or amendment of the TfL Railway Byelaws 2011, those byelaws are still in place and, irrespective of what they have done with the title of the land, it is still covered by those byelaws and is not relevant land for the purposes of PoFA.

I am following up their response with a question on why they are unable to fully answer the question and keep referring to a contract with SABA which has nothing to do with anything.