Party Wall Query

penrhynroad

Good Morning,

Just after some advice after a slight disagreement with the landlord of a property next door. We had a garden wall on our property which was falling down, so we arranged to have the wall removed and a fence put in its place. We told the tenants next door but maybe naively didn't get in touch with the landlord, this was because we were told if the wall is indicated with a T in the officials deeds then that boundary is the sole responsibility of my property. At the bottom of the wall is a small retaining wall, the builders carrying out the work planned to strengthen the retaining wall. The landlord is now trying to dictate exactly how the wall is repaired citing the party wall act, adding considerable cost. Another reason we didn't think it would be an issue is that the landlord built a Dorma over the house party wall without serving us any papers a few years ago. Am i able to proceed with our plans for the wall repair or could this all turn into a legal mess which we really don't want. Any advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks.

Bigphil1474

The boundary wall is not a party wall - party walls are structural. If the boundary wall sits on your property it's your wall to do with as you please. If it's on the boundary and is owned equally, then the landlord can have a say. The Party Wall Act won't apply to the boundary wall, the landlord is talking nonsense, and you can crack on and maintain your wall - assuming it is yours.

Section62

Bigphil1474 said:

The boundary wall is not a party wall - party walls are structural. If the boundary wall sits on your property it's your wall to do with as you please. If it's on the boundary and is owned equally, then the landlord can have a say. The Party Wall Act won't apply to the boundary wall, the landlord is talking nonsense, and you can crack on and maintain your wall - assuming it is yours.

It is likely the wall between the two houses is a party wall though, and as the boundary wall has a 'retaining wall' at the bottom it sounds like there may be a reasonable probability the Party Wall Act will be engaged by the work the OP is doing.

It would be sensible to contact a PWS and ask them the question.  If work on the boundary wall leads to damage to the neighbour's property then it could get rather expensive for the OP.

I'd be very wary about having a builder as the sole professional giving advice on a retaining wall in any event.

WIAWSNB

Hi Pen.
Could you explain the detail in that plan, please? Where is the boundary wall in question? What type of properties do you have? Whose ground is this wall retaining? Were the houses built at the same time? And what does it say in your respective deeds regarding responsibility? (Apparently, 'T's mean now't unless accompanied by a written explanation.) 
Thanks.

penrhynroad

WIAWSNB said:

Hi Pen.
Could you explain the detail in that plan, please? Where is the boundary wall in question? What type of properties do you have? Whose ground is this wall retaining? Were the houses built at the same time? And what does it say in your respective deeds regarding responsibility? (Apparently, 'T's mean now't unless accompanied by a written explanation.) 
Thanks.

Hi,

Where is the boundary wall in question? Highlighted below with a red line.
What type of properties do you have? They are old Victorian terraced houses, roughly 100 years old.
Whose ground is this wall retaining? It is retaining a small part of my garden.
Were the houses built at the same time? Yes built at the same time i believe.
And what does it say in your respective deeds regarding responsibility? (Apparently, 'T's mean now't unless accompanied by a written explanation.) The deeds don't explicitly mention anything to do with the "T" they just highlight the party walls indicated by AB, CD, EF.

WIAWSNB

penrhynroad said:

Where is the boundary wall in question? Highlighted below with a red line.
What type of properties do you have? They are old Victorian terraced houses, roughly 100 years old.
Whose ground is this wall retaining? It is retaining a small part of my garden.
Were the houses built at the same time? Yes built at the same time i believe.
And what does it say in your respective deeds regarding responsibility? (Apparently, 'T's mean now't unless accompanied by a written explanation.) The deeds don't explicitly mention anything to do with the "T" they just highlight the party walls indicated by AB, CD, EF.

Thanks.

That could help, as it doesn't suggest the 'red'-marked boundary is 'party' at all; in fact, it's quite notable for being one of the few not being indicated as being 'party'.

'T' marks do tend to indicate 'responsibility', but it was made clear to me on another forum - Gardenlaw - that it legally means nothing unless accompanied by text to explain. It is certainly widely 'regarded' by many as suggesting ownership/responsibility, but there you seemingly are. 

Have you looked at the other set of deeds - your neighbour's? 

Anyhoo, I think you could currently argue that there is nothing there to suggest that the boundary in question is 'party', and if the neighbour's deeds indicate the same, then I'd place the onus on the other party to provide evidence to the contrary. So, it's a case of, "Show me..."

If he doesn't or cannot, then you are going to fix your fence, and your retaining wall the way you want. 

If he threatens to interfere, or actually does, then you need to 'put him on notice' - or whatever the term is - that he has obstructed you from carrying out the required repairs, so will be liable for any subsequent failure of the wall. 

(Always bearing in mind that this is a laypeep's opinion.)

grumpy_codger

penrhynroad said:

WIAWSNB said:

Hi Pen.
Could you explain the detail in that plan, please? Where is the boundary wall in question? What type of properties do you have? Whose ground is this wall retaining? Were the houses built at the same time? And what does it say in your respective deeds regarding responsibility? (Apparently, 'T's mean now't unless accompanied by a written explanation.) 
Thanks.

...The deeds don't explicitly mention anything to do with the "T" they just highlight the party walls indicated by AB, CD, EF.

The deeds or the title plan? Where does it say "party" and "wall", not just "boundary"?
Typically, a retaining wall belongs to the higher-level property that soil it retains. If so, so does the wall built on the retaining wall. 

Section62

WIAWSNB said:

...

Anyhoo, I think you could currently argue that there is nothing there to suggest that the boundary in question is 'party', and if the neighbour's deeds indicate the same, then I'd place the onus on the other party to provide evidence to the contrary. So, it's a case of, "Show me..."

If he doesn't or cannot, then you are going to fix your fence, and your retaining wall the way you want. 

If he threatens to interfere, or actually does, then you need to 'put him on notice' - or whatever the term is - that he has obstructed you from carrying out the required repairs, so will be liable for any subsequent failure of the wall. 

(Always bearing in mind that this is a laypeep's opinion.)

Not clear whether the neighbour is claiming ownership of the wall, nor that it is a party wall.  But what the OP did say is the neighbour is "citing the party wall act".

If CD is a party wall then works of a possibly structural nature to the wall along the red line may fall under the PWA provisions.

It would be better for the OP to speak to a PWS themselves to clarify the situation, rather than getting antsy with the neighbour and goading them into appointing their own PWS.

Also needs some clarification on why EF is also a party wall, and who owns the structure which is surrounded on three sides by the OP's property.

grumpy_codger

Section62 said:

WIAWSNB said:

...

Anyhoo, I think you could currently argue that there is nothing there to suggest that the boundary in question is 'party', and if the neighbour's deeds indicate the same, then I'd place the onus on the other party to provide evidence to the contrary. So, it's a case of, "Show me..."

If he doesn't or cannot, then you are going to fix your fence, and your retaining wall the way you want. 

If he threatens to interfere, or actually does, then you need to 'put him on notice' - or whatever the term is - that he has obstructed you from carrying out the required repairs, so will be liable for any subsequent failure of the wall. 

(Always bearing in mind that this is a laypeep's opinion.)

...

Also needs some clarification on why EF is also a party wall, and who owns the structure which is surrounded on three sides by the OP's property.

Why does this matter? Regardless, the red bondary on the title plan seems to indicate that the remote half of the structure is owned by the OP.

Section62

grumpy_codger said:

Section62 said:

WIAWSNB said:

...

Anyhoo, I think you could currently argue that there is nothing there to suggest that the boundary in question is 'party', and if the neighbour's deeds indicate the same, then I'd place the onus on the other party to provide evidence to the contrary. So, it's a case of, "Show me..."

If he doesn't or cannot, then you are going to fix your fence, and your retaining wall the way you want. 

If he threatens to interfere, or actually does, then you need to 'put him on notice' - or whatever the term is - that he has obstructed you from carrying out the required repairs, so will be liable for any subsequent failure of the wall. 

(Always bearing in mind that this is a laypeep's opinion.)

...

Also needs some clarification on why EF is also a party wall, and who owns the structure which is surrounded on three sides by the OP's property.

Why does this matter? Regardless, the red bondary on the title plan seems to indicate that the remote half of the structure is owned by the OP.

Because it looks like the structure may be within 3m of the boundary/retaining wall the OP is having work done to.

WIAWSNB

grumpy_codger said:
Typically, a retaining wall belongs to the higher-level property that soil it retains. If so, so does the wall built on the retaining wall. 

I think the person on whose land the retaining wall actually sits owns it, be it higher or lower. Unless the deeds state otherwise.

If, for example, someone excavates land along a boundary, and therefore creates the requirement for a retaining wall, then it should be on their land, and their responsibility. 

In the OP's case, we don't appear to know.