Issues post completion

Donna77

user1977 said:

In any event, the initial response from the seller's solicitor may simply be "we don't have instructions" - whether that's because their clients haven't replied, the solicitors aren't qualified to get into a dispute, or their clients haven't agreed to pay the additional fees any dispute would incur.

Personally, if it was me and i was aware of the legal consequences..yes i would reply immediately.  If your other comments are true (which are valid)...then surely this information should be relayed so I can chose how i want to respond. 

WIAWSNB

Donna77 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Donna77 said:

I have a septic tank and the original owners knew that it wasn't compliant and lied on the TA form. 
On the TA form they declare there are no known issues and subsequently on enquiries said everything flows fine...which it does not.  

Donna77 said:

My solicitor missed the fact the cesspit isn't up to regulation and never passed the information they had onto me..so no way i could have known.

How would your Solicitor have known about deficiencies in the waste system?  What information did your Solicitor have that you did not have?

The Solicitor will most likely not have even visited the property, let alone inspect the waste system.

What information did your survey state regarding the waste system?

In what way is the waste system "not up to regulation"?
Is it like an electrical survey reporting "not up to latest regulations" but that does not mean there is a need to do anything to the system - any installation beyond a certain age will not comply with latest regulations.

It was sold as a cesspit (which it is not) a completely contained system.  They were given the information of the size of the tank, which is severely undersized for the regulation of the building.  The property was extended and should have been brought up to standard as part of the building regs.  Also even if it wasn't part of the building regs...new regulations came in that all systems had to be updated and brought up to standards by 2020 and should not be sold until this is done.

We have since found out (due to immediate issuse with the tank) that it is in fact a septic tank...with a broken soak away.  They knew it was broken (i have proof) when they brought the house and negotiated on the price they paid because of it.  They did not fix the issue and declared it as working/fully functional when it was not.  Essentially lying on the TA form and subsequent enquiries in the conveyancing. So i am stuck with the bill to repair an issue they knew about and didn't fix...and was "illegal" because it goes against environmental standards and i could have been fined by the environmental agency if the tank leaked...which being undersized and a broken soak away was a very possibility.

I am not an expert in these systems, but Google tells me a 'cesspit' is a simple store of sewage solids and liquids, does not process or treat the material, must not discharge or overflow, and requires regular emptying as a result.
If it ain't big enough, it needs more frequent emptying. 
A Septic Tank is a step up from this, in that the solid matter does undergo some processing, usually allowing the resulting liquid to be discharged to a suitable point such as a soakaway, and - as a result - they should need far less regular emptying.
I'm not sure that STs are all inherently 'non-compliant'.
Allowing for the seeming fact that it's your discharge pipe or soakaway that's faulty, it would appear your current level of inconvenience would be that it requires a more regular emptying than you'd have with a CP?
Ie, if you have it emptied, you're good to 'go', for a good number of months at least? Keep that going for as long as you like.
I point this out because your OP, which I replied to, suggested the vendors left you a 'non-compliant' ST that was also 'broken'.
And, CP or ST, were you not factoring in an almost certain upgrade to a TP at some point in any case? Or were you always going to be factoring in regular emptying?
As for the caravan, is it usable? Would someone happily take it away for now't? 
But, yes, if the vendor stated the system was functioning correctly, and it's clear it ain't and wasn't, then a 'statement of truth' from the neighbour - perhaps even info from the ST emptying co - should make some form of claim quite possible.

Donna77

WIAWSNB said:

Donna77 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Donna77 said:

I have a septic tank and the original owners knew that it wasn't compliant and lied on the TA form. 
On the TA form they declare there are no known issues and subsequently on enquiries said everything flows fine...which it does not.  

Donna77 said:

My solicitor missed the fact the cesspit isn't up to regulation and never passed the information they had onto me..so no way i could have known.

How would your Solicitor have known about deficiencies in the waste system?  What information did your Solicitor have that you did not have?

The Solicitor will most likely not have even visited the property, let alone inspect the waste system.

What information did your survey state regarding the waste system?

In what way is the waste system "not up to regulation"?
Is it like an electrical survey reporting "not up to latest regulations" but that does not mean there is a need to do anything to the system - any installation beyond a certain age will not comply with latest regulations.

It was sold as a cesspit (which it is not) a completely contained system.  They were given the information of the size of the tank, which is severely undersized for the regulation of the building.  The property was extended and should have been brought up to standard as part of the building regs.  Also even if it wasn't part of the building regs...new regulations came in that all systems had to be updated and brought up to standards by 2020 and should not be sold until this is done.

We have since found out (due to immediate issuse with the tank) that it is in fact a septic tank...with a broken soak away.  They knew it was broken (i have proof) when they brought the house and negotiated on the price they paid because of it.  They did not fix the issue and declared it as working/fully functional when it was not.  Essentially lying on the TA form and subsequent enquiries in the conveyancing. So i am stuck with the bill to repair an issue they knew about and didn't fix...and was "illegal" because it goes against environmental standards and i could have been fined by the environmental agency if the tank leaked...which being undersized and a broken soak away was a very possibility.

I am not an expert in these systems, but Google tells me a 'cesspit' is a simple store of sewage solids and liquids, does not process or treat the material, must not discharge or overflow, and requires regular emptying as a result.
If it ain't big enough, it needs more frequent emptying. 
A Septic Tank is a step up from this, in that the solid matter does undergo some processing, usually allowing the resulting liquid to be discharged to a suitable point such as a soakaway, and - as a result - they should need far less regular emptying.
I'm not sure that STs are all inherently 'non-compliant'.
Allowing for the seeming fact that it's your discharge pipe or soakaway that's faulty, it would appear your current level of inconvenience would be that it requires a more regular emptying than you'd have with a CP?
Ie, if you have it emptied, you're good to 'go', for a good number of months at least? Keep that going for as long as you like.
I point this out because your OP, which I replied to, suggested the vendors left you a 'non-compliant' ST that was also 'broken'.
And, CP or ST, were you not factoring in an almost certain upgrade to a TP at some point in any case? Or were you always going to be factoring in regular emptying?
As for the caravan, is it usable? Would someone happily take it away for now't? 
But, yes, if the vendor stated the system was functioning correctly, and it's clear it ain't and wasn't, then a 'statement of truth' from the neighbour - perhaps even info from the ST emptying co - should make some form of claim quite possible.

I had factored for the emptying of the tank and was told they emptied it once a yr.  Due to the small size of the tank and the broken soak away i am having to drain it once a week (£150 a time) to stop it over flowing and getting in trouble with the envirommental agency.  I won't tell you what we discovered the previous owners were doing to empty the excess fluids.

So if it's a cesspit as they claimed it's under sized at 4600l when should be minimum of 52000 to meet regulations..

The fact it's a septic tank does improve the situation, but the broken soak away also makes it non compliant and illegal to sell without it being compliant.  I am on the hook from the environmenal agency and could be fined 1000s if something goes wrong in the meantime.

The caravan is not usuable...it's junk and because of where it's situated (halfway down a big garden) and not towable, we can't find anyone willing to give us a quote to take it away.

I have witness statements about the tank...neighbour, the contractor that is fixing the issue and another expert in the field...so covered there.

loubel

The seller must have known it wasn't a cess pit so you should have a case against them (although they may claim ignorance and you will likely get your wrists wrapped for not having it inspected prior to purchase). You will need to instruct specialist property litigators on this though, your conveyancer won't be able to deal with this. 

Section62

Donna77 said:

WIAWSNB said:

...

The fact it's a septic tank does improve the situation, but the broken soak away also makes it non compliant and illegal to sell without it being compliant.  I am on the hook from the environmenal agency and could be fined 1000s if something goes wrong in the meantime.

In what way is the soakaway 'broken'?

Donna77 said:

The caravan is not usuable...it's junk and because of where it's situated (halfway down a big garden) and not towable, we can't find anyone willing to give us a quote to take it away.

Why isn't it towable?  Have you tried giving it away on a site like Freecycle? (assuming the vendors have agreed you can dispose of it)

user1977

Donna77 said:

user1977 said:

In any event, the initial response from the seller's solicitor may simply be "we don't have instructions" - whether that's because their clients haven't replied, the solicitors aren't qualified to get into a dispute, or their clients haven't agreed to pay the additional fees any dispute would incur.

Personally, if it was me and i was aware of the legal consequences..yes i would reply immediately.  If your other comments are true (which are valid)...then surely this information should be relayed so I can chose how i want to respond. 

It's not urgent though, and if you wanted to pursue anything against the sellers you'd have to contact them (rather than their solicitors) and give them a reasonable opportunity to respond.

WIAWSNB

Donna77 said:

I had factored for the emptying of the tank and was told they emptied it once a yr.  Due to the small size of the tank and the broken soak away I am having to drain it once a week (£150 a time) to stop it over flowing and getting in trouble with the envirommental agency.  I won't tell you what we discovered the previous owners were doing to empty the excess fluids.
So if it's a cesspit as they claimed it's under sized at 4600l when should be minimum of 52000 to meet regulations.
The fact it's a septic tank does improve the situation, but the broken soak away also makes it non compliant and illegal to sell without it being compliant.  I am on the hook from the environmenal agency and could be fined 1000s if something goes wrong in the meantime.
The caravan is not usuable...it's junk and because of where it's situated (halfway down a big garden) and not towable, we can't find anyone willing to give us a quote to take it away.
I have witness statements about the tank...neighbour, the contractor that is fixing the issue and another expert in the field...so covered there.

Thanks for the clarification.

Blimey - once a week? That seems extreme. Why is it this bad? What would be required to fix the outlet/soakaway, which is the part that appears to be leaking? 

I don't think it's necessarily 'illegal' to sell a property with a non-compliant ST, but I'd agree they should have informed you so as to not let you breach EH laws. 

What did you ask - if anything - about the sewage disposal system? I'm not sure it being 'undersized' is an issue, as this would come down to the number of actual users. 

Did the vendor state it was a Cesspit of a certain volume?

Did you add Legal Protection to your house insurance policy? Not sure it'll cover this sort of issue as it clearly existed before the policy even tho' you were genuinely unaware about it, but it's worth a call nonetheless. You may find that, even if they don't pay for representation, they could well guide you on the best 'approach'. And this could possibly be as 'simple' as a 'letter before action', and then suing them for the resolution - whatever that might be. 

I suspect - if you succeed - you could only bill them for a repair to the soakaway, as it being 'undersized' could possibly be a matter for discussion. Ie, if you add an extension, it doesn't mean you have to increase the size of your ST, or C, or TP. You just need to ensure it carries on doing its jobbie. 

I certainly think you've been wrong-done by, and if you were told the sewage system was fully operational when it ain't, then that's a costly call. The caravan should be relatively straightforward - you give them a reasonable time to comply - say two weeks - then pay a contractor, and sue them using MoneyClaim.org. It should be a formality. 

Good luck - please keep us updated. 

lincroft1710

As a septic tank a capacity of 4600 litres would be deemed adequate. Over 50 years ago I was meeting people who did not know the difference between a cesspit and septic tank and this is clearly still the case.


Your vendor will be in no hurry to reply to letters which suggest their buyer is going to sue them. Even if you track them down and have to issue court proceedings, it can take a year before the case is heard and even if you win you have the problem of actually getting the money from your vendor.


It is not a quick and easy process

WIAWSNB

The 'known' fault will be the issue, I suspect.

GDB2222

You asked a question about when you can sue the sellers, and the answer is now. But, you need to know what you are letting yourself in for:

If  this is a small claim (broadly under £10k) you can't reclaim your legal fees if you win. I'm not sure of the size of the claim or your legal fees for claiming, but it's likely your fees would exceed the amount you want to claim. So, in practice, you'll need to issue the proceedings yourself, without legal help, and represent yourself in court.

There are guides on how to do all that, but it's quite a steep learning curve.

The other issue you have at the moment is that you don't know yet how much it is going to cost to fix the problems with the property. As a practical issue, you really need to issue proceedings for a fixed sum, and you're not going to be in a position to do that until you have received multiple quotes for the work. 

Even when you do issue proceedings, it will take months before the hearing takes place. So, nothing is going to happen quickly.

Litigation is stressful, and it's hard work - you'll get no compensation for either of those. You may need to spend  money obtaining expert reports, etc. 

Overall, my strong advice is to negotiate a settlement if you possibly can.