Air Source Heat Pumps and the Shared Ownership problems

QrizB

matelodave said:

TBH looking at the Nibe documentation its seems that its more like an electric heating system with a heatpump bolted on so although you get some benefit from the heatpump bit you are still doing some heating with an immersion heater and then the heatpump recovers heat from within the building - It appears that there isn't an outside unit so the unit has to extract air via ducting inside the building and exhaust the cooled air to the outside (a bit like a heat recovery system) 

This was the big problem with the Nibe exhaust air heat pumps, as I recall (and there are several threads on MSE from a decade or so ago that go into it in detail). The system was intended for properties with a high standard of insulation and airtightness (similar to a Passivhaus) such that the bulk of the heat demand was supplied by incidental sources - cooking, appliances, body heat.

Installed in a conventional British semi, the heat losses were high enough that the backup heaters ran most of the time and it was barely any better than having panel heaters (or ones powered by magic dust, see my signature for indicative costs).

There were investigative reports by consumer affairs programmes that resulted in many of these Nibe heat pumps being removed and replaced by gas boilers. Sadly the OP's council didn't choose this route and they're stuck with a marginally effective system.

QrizB

Anyway, enough history.

Badkarma81 said:
Purchased a 50% share in a Shared Ownership property in July last year and knew the property came with an Air Source Heat Pump

Welcome to property ownership, where the buck stops with you. Sorry that it's off to such a rocky start.

Badkarma81 said:

.   in, in Sept 2024 and within a month the ASHP decided it had worked hard enough and quit on us.

Is it definitely knackered? Because you then say:

Badkarma81 said:

The Heat pump is stuck in winter mode and until recently was setting us back around £400 - 450 a month in electricity until the warmer weather kicked in.

"Stuck in winter mode" suggests that it's still working and/or can be fixed? Is that an option at all?

Badkarma81 said:

..  the system is not designed for a 3 bedroom property our size, pipework and radiators are too small - he was the original servicing engineer on behalf of Nibe that had worked on this system with the previous owner.

OK, so:

Badkarma81 said:

So we contacted the HA and requested we replace the ASHP with a Combi Boiler, provided the quotes from registered companies and have been denied - they will only permit a like for like replacement and this is only where the saga begins....

... it sounds like you might be able to get away with keeping the heat pump if you could get a cheaper source of top-up heating?

How about Cosy Octopus? Cheaper electricity for three periods a day during which you can heat up your home, allowing the heat pump to help retain that heating the in-between periods?

https://octopus.energy/smart/cosy-octopus/

Might that work for you?

If that's not going to work for you, you either need to convince your HA to change their mind or replace the Nibe with a different heat pump.

I don't know the first thing about your property, but conceivably you could replace the Nibe with an air-to-air heat pump (aka a mini split air conditioning system) for far less than the cost of a new air--to-water system. That will depend on having somewhere to put the outdoor unit.

Or fit three or four through-the-wall ducted heat pumps?

All of these are going to be more expensive than just hanging a gas boiler on the wall, but will meet the HA's requirement for a "heat pump".

Scot_39

Is gas being rejected just because of ethics / emissions (just like it is defacto for new builds) ?

If cost - and issues around external space / noise - prevents a convention ASHP.

Would as above - an internal only - per room reverse air con heating perhaps be an acceptable compromise.  Same cop style benefits - home rooms always warm enough to meet its min temps (unlike the example from years ago here of the one fitted in an uninsulated detached ? garage used as a gym)

Maybe even just one boosting main room or halls / bedrooms etc during the day via doors if / when open - might make a difference.

QrizB

Scot_39 said:

Would as above - an internal only - per room reverse air con heating perhaps be an acceptable compromise. 

As they're not exactly common, here's an example:

https://www.aircondirect.co.uk/p/1449870/10000-btu-wall-mounted-air-conditioner-and-heat-pump-without-outdoor-unit-with-wifi-for-rooms-up-to-30-sqm

That particular one is rated at 10000 BTU/hr which is about 3kW, roughly half the total heat demand of my not-especially-well-insulated 3-bed semi.

It's about the size of a chunky radiator, but twice as deep. It needs to be installed on an external wall, and as you can see needs two holes to be drilled through the wall for the ducting.

Badkarma81

QrizB said:

Anyway, enough history.

Badkarma81 said:
Purchased a 50% share in a Shared Ownership property in July last year and knew the property came with an Air Source Heat Pump

Welcome to property ownership, where the buck stops with you. Sorry that it's off to such a rocky start.

Badkarma81 said:

.   in, in Sept 2024 and within a month the ASHP decided it had worked hard enough and quit on us.

Is it definitely knackered? Because you then say:

Badkarma81 said:

The Heat pump is stuck in winter mode and until recently was setting us back around £400 - 450 a month in electricity until the warmer weather kicked in.

"Stuck in winter mode" suggests that it's still working and/or can be fixed? Is that an option at all?

I appreciate that being in a Shared Ownership property means we are responsible for the internals however we are not permitted to make an alteration that would fit for us.

ASHP is definitely knackered - the engineer we had attend was appointed by Nibe to do the servicing by the previous owner hence we thought it best going back to someone whom knows the system - we have a LP alarm which Nibe do not know how to fix (I kid you not they asked me to turn it off and back on again - only advice they could give). Engineer states its the compressor that has seized causing the immersion boiler to be locked on which he has managed to bypass. He does not recommend having the relevant part replaced as he has done the work before and described it as 'Triggers Broom' - if it were to be replaced, it would likely last months due to the gunk and build up within the system. He does not deal with gas systems however it was his advice to look into a gas combi hence the road we now travel. 

Badkarma81

Ill post my email chain with the HA and redact names and identifiers - should give a clearer picture (I hope)

Thank you for your email however I think I large part of our ongoing issues have not been considered which I will paste below:

 

Email 1 - sent 22/11/2024

 

Following a conversation with               Customer Services advisor             today (22/11/2024) he asked that we send and email to yourselves following a few issues we are having with the current Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

 

We purchased                                            alongside             via the Shared Ownership scheme with completion occurring on the 23rd August 2024. We were aware the property had an ASHP installed and told it was economical to run.

 

Up until recently the Nibe Fighter 360p ASHP has kept the property comfortable with very little ability to increase room temperatures if needed and no problems with water temperature wherein lies problem number 1:

 

We have currently had outdoor temperatures in the negative digits and regardless of attempts being made to understand the manual and watch tutorial videos were unable to warm the house up. 

 

This has resulted in our 4 month old baby having to sleep in bed with my wife as regardless of clothing/blankets it was difficult to keep her warm. Our 10 year old daughter slept in fleeced pyjamas with extra blankets on top - this does not offer any quality of living.

 

Problem 2:

 

When in a period of low to negative temperatures, the ASHP does not produce hot water...lukewarm at best, not hot enough to wash up with, let alone shower as we believe it is busy trying to heat the house.

 

The ASHP in particular has a Winter Mode which even according to Nibe should not be used as it is expensive to run however we put the ASHP in to Winter Mode to see if it would heat the house sufficiently or provide adequate temperature yet the only thing going up was the Smart Meter Electricity usage with no noticeable change.

 

Whilst researching methods on improving our situation we became aware of the following articles that relate specifically to this ASHP - Nibe Fighter 360p

 

'Efficient' heating system left families with big bills - BBC News

 

Nibe Fighter 360p — MoneySavingExpert Forum

 

Nibe Fighter 360p ashp costing me loads to run - Page 29 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

 

Nibe Fighter 360P Boiler Problems — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

 

(1) NIBE on Rip Off Britain - YouTube

 

These are to name a few examples relating to this same boiler in New Build estates the same age as our Property.

 

The Previous owner had subscribed to an annual service with Nibe directly and recently notified us that it has had lots of parts replaced officially via Nibe. It therefore cannot be argued that it is user or installation error as the system has been left as set by the previous owner and the service done in July 2024. The previous owner did show us a pipe she was informed was a capped gas supply pipe as she would recommend removing it and installing a combination boiler for all the issues she has had over the years.

 

We have since had the previous owner come to our property to try and explain the system and even she had little understanding of how the unit worked and relied on the Nibe service engineer to set it up. 

 

Upon speaking with our direct Neighbour to see how they have theirs setup especially in this cold snap, she showed us the portable electric heater she uses in the living room with her door shut which would suggest not enough heat is being generated by the heating system in her property either.

 

We are aware that there is a hot water boost function and Winter Mode enables the immersion heater however this comes at a very steep price which makes it unusable in the long term.

 

We paid the price set via                    without room to negotiate on cost however coming to learn about this uneconomical heating system feel it is not suitable for the property or the temperatures received here in the UK.

 

Being new to the area, we have not met all of the Neighbours yet however these Nibe systems are often the topic of conversation with those we have met advising they have had their systems replaced - was this privately or with assistance from yourselves at                  ?

 

On the approach to the colder temperatures associate with Winter, trying to resolve this matter expediently would be appreciated.

 

I would therefore like to discuss the removal of the inadequate system and replacement with a Combination Boiler however not at our expense (which had we have known then what we know now, would of been a matter of negotiation on the price of the property)

 

From our research it appears these systems were miss sold to housing associations across the Country within the same time period this property was built.

 

I apologise for the wall of text and appreciate you taking the time to read and hope we can come to a satisfactory agreement.

 

Email 2 - sent 18/02/2025

 

Good Evening      

 

Thank you for your email and will await any update.

 

Could I just add further about the non Economical side of the ASHP/EASHP - we had a power cut approximately Midnight with power not returning until 0830 on 18/02/2025. Since power has returned and the house being on the somewhat freezing cold side, the electricity smart meter is showing an usage cost of £9.04 (non winter mode and without hot water boost enabled) as of 1657 hours - I believe this is the system attempting to get the house up to a liveable temperature.

 

I can appreciate energy costs are high and this is not a concern of                   however my concerns are that we have inherited a flawed, uneconomical heating system without the ability to replace it for a conventional Combination Boiler system - advised by British Gas that due to regulations imparted by Government we can not replace a ASHP with a Combination Boiler unless we contacted a local firm to conduct the work whom may be less strict - We for obvious reasons could not progress down this route due to being within partnership with yourselves.

 

British Gas also advised that if a Governmental Grant was obtained for a Heat Pump system around £7500 towards the cost of installation we would likely be accountable for paying said Grant back.

 

The cost of a suitable replacement system is unaffordable when compared to a combination boiler system.

 

We now currently have a LP Alarm indicator and appears to be a compressor fault and cannot find out how to resolve the issue and will now need to contact an engineer to advise us at further financial cost. We were made aware by the previous owner that the system was maintained regularly via a NIBE approved service engineer however over the years the system has basically been rebuilt with new parts - concerns are that even with replacement parts the system is still having ongoing issues.

 

Can you please advise us with some level of urgency as this is having a detrimental impact on my families quality of life.

 

End of previous email correspondence - 

 

We have had a Heat Pump engineer named              from                  attend the property and diagnose the issue whilst unable to resolve the fault explained the system has far exceeded its life expectancy (he previously worked on this exact system at this property on behalf of Nibe and has a full knowledge of the existing problems) - it was of his opinion that even replacing the faulty part would be a short term "fix" and the entire system needs replacing and should never have been installed in the property this size - explained that it is both under powered/sized and inefficient to effectively heat a 3 bedroom house with incorrect radiators and no underfloor heating - more suitable for a small flat.

 

It was his suggestion that replacing the said Nibe 360p with a combi boiler was our best option as due to how well insulated the property should be, the effective energy costs would be lower for us and the current radiator/piping would not need to be upgraded as they were designed for a combination boiler in mind and inefficient for a ASHP.

 

This then led us down the route of obtaining quotes in relation to replacement of the ASHP as per our application.

 

We, following discussion with Neighbours are aware that residents have been permitted the removal of their Nibe system and replaced by a combination boiler 

 

The particular boiler we are interested in, namely the Worcester Bosch Greenstar 4000 is considered a very efficient system with regards to energy ratings. We cannot be held to decisions that were made before 2009 when the house was built as per planning permissions - How installing a low carbon heat pump can downgrade your EPC rating | Green Services Direct the following link will show how the Government were advised that the original EPC were no sufficient when calculating the overall effectiveness of Heat Pumps and how the scoring needed to be changed and could lead to a downgrade in the EPC rating (please bare in mind the application was made approximately 14 years ago and therefore would not be up to date with Governments advice (please see link provided)

 

If we explore the avenues of replacing this ineffective Nibe system with another heat pump my concerns are (as validated by companies that have attended) we may require a whole new pipe system, underfloor heating and larger radiators as those installed as not designed for ASHP's.

 

This does not include the fact that heat pumps are expensive when compared to combi boilers.

 

With regards to our energy costs, believe me I am fully aware they are high - the system fault which cannot be rectified by Nibe customer services has left us running the systems in a permanent Winter Mode and only thankful that        from                            was able to disable a feature or our bills would be even higher.

 

We have gone from approximately £190 a month to excess of £400 a month so far whilst we have been waiting on correspondence regarding all of the above and yet still no closer to having this resolved.

 

              from                            has stated he would be prepared to write me a report on his findings and with regards to his numerous previous dealing with this exact system (we were provided his number by the previous owner)

 

We can provide our energy bills to show the significant change which is placing us in debit with the energy companies whilst we are awaiting your response. 

 

So therefore in summary - Energy bills are excessively high due to a faulty heat pump, the costs to replace said heat pump are hindered by the inefficient pipe network, lack of underfloor heating and undersized radiators to allow for a heat pump to be installed - not to mention the sheer costs of said units.

 

We cannot afford another heat pump and the potential spiralling cost the remedial work that would need to be done to allow it to work efficiently - we have been advised that the houses could not have been built with the heat pumps in mind as they have a live gas pipe within the same cupboard as the heat pump and under sized radiators.

 

Regrettably, if we are unable to resolve this issue we will have to liaise with Shared ownership - Housing Ombudsman to act as intermediaries.

 

This is our home and whilst I appreciate we are in partnership with yourselves, this is having a direct detrimental impact on us as a family and we are the ones whom have to live with the consequences. Financial constraints are the reason for us to have purchased via Shared Ownership and not proceeded privately.

 

May I ask, when the planning application is made and granted with the EPC rating - is the development inspected at any intervals to ensure they still meet the original planning criteria?