Horizon Parking Sign

N6xxy

Good morning,

May I have your input please. I have read the NEWBIES thread etc, but wondered what your take was on the sign attached.

A friend and I visit our local Starbucks a couple of times a month for a catch up before school run. The car park has recently (last 6 months) had new parking signs put in place. I've always presumed they were for the Travelodge opposite and honestly have never thought to read too much into it as we stay for around an hour, hour and a half a time. The Starbucks have no signage on their door re parking and do not say anything at the till regarding a tablet for parking. We popped in on the 3rd June to have a catch up, it had been my birthday a few days before and she has a newborn. My friend received a Horizon PCN yesterday (18th but charge dated 12th) stating that she had overstayed by 20 minutes. I am expecting to receive one too. My first plan will be to go in to Starbucks and have a chat with the manager but does this comply with regulations? One could argue it says Free Parking not maximum stay....Maximum stay could be construed as 4 hours or is that wishful thinking?

Thank you
N6xxy

Coupon-mad

Is the tablet hidden away and not obvious? Can you get a picture of that corner/area?

Do you have Starbucks receipts (both of you)?

Appeal with the receipts and say that Starbucks did not even mention entering a numberplate for the 4 hours free.

They'll probably settle for £20 and if you decide not to pay that we can help you defend a small claim fairly easily. Just hassle that's all.

Is the NTK POFA worded and arrived by day 14 from the parking event?

N6xxy

Thank you for your reply Coupon-mad.

We genuinely have never seen or been made aware of a tablet and we've been going there for years. I'm going to pop in tomorrow and have a chat and take photos. My friend has a screenshot of the receipt (she treated me as a birthday token) but has provided me with the screenshot should I need it. Absolutely no mention but of course it's on the sign so they could argue that....I don't know if 'should' also means or else you'll receive a fine...also the following circumstances are tiny whereas the Free Parking sign is very big?

We parked 3rd June she received her charge yesterday the 18th but it is dated the 12th so they're allowed to presume she received it within 2 days which would be within time.

I would also argue there is no mention on the sign of private land nor a contract being entered into?

N6xxy

I got my PCN through today.

 I went into Starbucks and they looked at me like I had 3 heads... We're the first to come in about the tickets...

I was sent over to Travelodge who gave me the same look and said it's all Horizon and nothing to do with them. Travelodge confirmed that they are the land owner and that it's an agreement they have with Horizon.

I Left my details including the PCN charge numbers with a lovely young lady at the Travelodge who is going to speak to her manager tomorrow but I'm not hopeful. I think they'll pass the buck to Horizon as the cameras were apparently installed a month ago so haven't dealt with this before 😩.

Car1980

All I'm seeing when glancing at that sign is "Free Parking". 

Why is 90 (mins) floating on a contrast-reducing grey disc?

Usual lack of informational hierarchy.

Coupon-mad

N6xxy said:

I got my PCN through today.

 I went into Starbucks and they looked at me like I had 3 heads... We're the first to come in about the tickets...

I was sent over to Travelodge who gave me the same look and said it's all Horizon and nothing to do with them. Travelodge confirmed that they are the land owner and that it's an agreement they have with Horizon.

I Left my details including the PCN charge numbers with a lovely young lady at the Travelodge who is going to speak to her manager tomorrow but I'm not hopeful. I think they'll pass the buck to Horizon as the cameras were apparently installed a month ago so haven't dealt with this before 😩.

Te us you DIDN'T give them the original PCN? You mean just the ref number & VRM?

I ask again: Is the NTK POFA worded and arrived by day 14 from the parking event?

N6xxy

No No i am ditzy but thankfully not that ditzty, i just gave vehicle registration and the PCN number.

I am currently in email correspondence with the Travelodge manager who is not happy with Starbucks lack of lustre and signage with telling people about the tablet and she said she has contacted Horizon to get back to her. I'm still not sold though as i worry she'll be palmed off it being all new to her.

back of PCN attached. It was dated within the 14 days but not received until yesterday. So breached 3rd June....dated of PCN 12th June received 19th June.

fisherjim

If the new parking rules (they are not regulations) were introduced a month ago that is classed as a "material change" and the Joint BPA/IPC COP states that the operator should install additional signage for four months, informing of the new rules, if they haven't that is a procedural breach and should be thrown out by POPLA. 

Premier Inn as the landowner and who engaged these free services should cancel this charge immediately they have the say to do so. Our doctors surgery have just signed up with a PPC and have cancelled all PCN's issued in the first four months, even stated so on Facebook!

Horizon up to their normal scamming tricks, what they don't want you to know:

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW Redesigned Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf

3.4. Material changes – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not
be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for
public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site
entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear
that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be
familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges

NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement
where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions
in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion
and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly
signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed
thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of
the premises

In Addition though this should not be necessary if signage has not been placed correctly:

F.3 Appeals where the charge should be reduced to £20 for a period of
14 days

g) where the vehicle would have been permitted to park at the location, but the driver failed
to enter their registration into a terminal/device as specified in the terms & conditions.

N6xxy

Thank you so much for that. I am waiting to hear back from the lady at Travelodge. To be fair she is being very reasonable and has actually walked over to Starbucks and said she couldn't even find the tablet!.... which by the way is a computer screen that looks like the till rather than a validation point. 

Castle

Can we see a copy of the front page of the NTK as well please.

Fruitcake

The back of the NTK isn't PoFA compliant, so it is important you show us the front as well.

The NTK mentions driver liability, but does not mention keeper liability.
It does not tell the keeper to pass the notice to the driver.