Road edits

Curiouscontraction

Road edits

WIAWSNB

Hi CC.
Could you clarify, please, for folk wishing to help;
There is a covenant regarding the upkeep of the road, which indemnifies the current (original) house owner against upkeep costs?
These costs remain with the developer until such time as the road is either adopted, or the house is sold? What happens in the latter case? Does the new owner take on their share of the costs, or what?
And what do the deeds say about a RightOfWay over this road, surely far more important?
In short, could you show us the exact wording in the deeds, please?
And how many other properties are served by this road?

Pure speculation by me, but it would appear that the worst case scenario is that - ultimately - the road's upkeep will be handled by all the homeowners served by it, once all the properties have been sold on? That isn't an unusual scenario in itself, tho' would be with a modern development.
Best case scenario is that the road is adopted.
So, until you have clarification of the true situation, use the 'worst case' to set your aims by?

Section62

Curiouscontraction said:

Very nice house, ~15 years old, ticks a lot of boxes for us. We've come to find out the road (cul de sac) it's on is unadopted/a private road. No service/management charges. Developer owns the road, planned to get it adopted but have not (although no Section 38 to suggest pursuing). Road is in good condition.

Original deed between developer and buyer has covenant effectively saying they're responsible and indemnifies buyer until adopted. But covenant doesn't transfer so this wouldn't apply to us (presumably still applies to some of the initial buyers still living there). Presumably if they did sell the road to someone else they could then enforce management/service fees.

Feeling very stuck/uncertain. Day to day I can imagine things would probably be fine. But I'm thinking about the risks down the line. It's not clear if they've had to do any maintenance/repair in those 15 years. Likely these issues would only arise years later and/or when we come to resell. Suddenly that good condition could be bad condition, and we might be in no man's land with no recourse to push for any maintenance/repair.

If the road hasn't been adopted after 15 years then I'd doubt it will ever be adopted without someone spending a lot of money.  Unless you like the house enough to be willing to pay your share of this lot of money then I'd be looking elsewhere.

Ensuring you have enduring vehicular right of way to the property is an absolute must - if there is any doubt about that then walk away.

Find out what is happening with services, including drainage and bin collection.  Policies vary, but some utilities/councils won't work on private roads - so for example it could be the drainage is also unadopted.

Is the developer a large one?  Did they set up a company specific to this development (e.g. "Acacia Heights development Ltd") for the land ownership and construction (rather than doing it under the main company)?  The worst case, potentially, is the developer going out of business leaving the road and any other assets they own on the development without management and anyone responsible for sorting things out.

HHarry

Our cul-de-sac was built 50 years ago and the road has never been adopted.  We bought 3 years ago and didn’t realise it was private until it was highlighted late on in the conveyancing process.  There doesn’t appear to be any formal agreement of ownership.

Originally it was just a gravel surface, but a few years ago one of the residents decided to try and get it properly surfaced.  I imagine it took some organising, but he managed to get most of the 30 odd residents to chip in a couple of thousand pounds and arranged for it to get done.

So what nightmares are you envisioning? It’s 15 years old and only has 40 households using it so it’s unlikely to need resurfacing any time soon.  Drainage issues?  Well if something gets blocked then soneone is going to have to organised a clearance and that might be a hassle - but does your property have a drain outside or is it at a low point and at risk of flooding?  No?  Then someone else is probably further up the queue to sort it.

 If everything else is perfect then don’t just reject it.  Every house will have some issue lurking in the background.

RHemmings

Answering the question in the title, I would consider buying a house on a private unadopted road.

But, looking at the thread itself, I would absolutely not want to buy a house with an unadopted road where the situation appears to be a big, potentially problematic, mess. Unless more information comes to light that clarifies things, I'd avoid this property. Unless it was a massive, massive, bargain. 

Section62

HHarry said:

...So what nightmares are you envisioning? It’s 15 years old and only has 40 households using it so it’s unlikely to need resurfacing any time soon.

That depends on how well the road has been built and what the specification was - one of the reasons planned adoptions fail is because the developer didn't build the road to an adoptable standard.  There's also a big difference between a flexible pavement (tarmac) laid over the correct base course and sub-base, vs block paving laid on sand.

HHarry said:

Drainage issues?  Well if something gets blocked then soneone is going to have to organised a clearance and that might be a hassle - but does your property have a drain outside or is it at a low point and at risk of flooding?  No?  Then someone else is probably further up the queue to sort it.

But you're unlikely to be a popular neighbour if you adopt that approach when your 'stuff' is flooding next-doors home/garden.

Though potentially it is more of an issue if you want a mortgage and the mortgage co discover the property isn't connected to a public sewer and there is no clear right to discharge into the pipe currently being used.  Those details need clarifying.

DullGreyGuy

Cousin lives on an unadopted cul-de-sac. Their deeds has very limited information on the road other than saying the owners are responsible for its maintenance. 

Theirs must be near 50 years old now and for decades it's been in a terrible state. Different people have different interpretations of what's in the deeds and no one has come up with an approach that everyone agrees to. The ones at the closed end think everyone should do up to the median line in front of their own property, the ones at the entrance say others should contribute to their bit because everyone drives on it but that they shouldn't contribute to the far end because they never drive on it. 

Houses on the road are substantial and sell for good money so clearly some are willing to take on unmaintained unadopted roads even when in very bad condition

RHemmings

Curiouscontraction said:

RHemmings said:

Answering the question in the title, I would consider buying a house on a private unadopted road.

But, looking at the thread itself, I would absolutely not want to buy a house with an unadopted road where the situation appears to be a big, potentially problematic, mess. Unless more information comes to light that clarifies things, I'd avoid this property. Unless it was a massive, massive, bargain. 

Do you mind explaining what specifically puts you off beyond the fact that it is an unadopted road?

These quotes from your posts above. And, the responses of others. (I do note @HHarry's more positive post). 

Original deed between developer and buyer has covenant effectively saying they're responsible and indemnifies buyer until adopted. But covenant doesn't transfer so this wouldn't apply to us (presumably still applies to some of the initial buyers still living there). Presumably if they did sell the road to someone else they could then enforce management/service fees.

I suppose it really comes down to how much that could be. But the lack of clarity is difficult, seeing as in the past 15 years no one has paid anything towards repair/maintenance. And as before, at least some will have a covenant stating they'll maintain till adoption (I would not, but presumably would indirectly benefit).

Fundamentally I would prefer not to get myself into a situation that could turn sticky in the future. Of course, that can happen in any property purchase, but I'd still like to avoid problems where possible. 

Section62

DullGreyGuy said:

...
Houses on the road are substantial and sell for good money so clearly some are willing to take on unmaintained unadopted roads even when in very bad condition

There's unadopted roads, and then there are roads that were never going to be adopted.  The latter, especially where the road has been in existence for a very long time, might also be attractive to some people if they can have a sign at the end saying "Private Road - Residents Only".  It also helps if the area is upmarket and residents can i) afford to part with some cash for maintenance and ii) see the value of maintenance in terms of protecting the value of their property, and having friends round without risk of the potholes damaging the Tesla/Bentley/Range Rover etc.

The roads which were going to be adopted but haven't been are potentially more problematic because the legal and practical arrangements were likely put in place on the understanding the road would be the council's responsibility.  It's like having the play area which was only half-built.  Getting other residents to agree to pay for maintenance can be harder because some will still feel the developer/council should do it, and if any work is required then there's the difficulty that the road is owned by someone (the developer) who may not be happy with what the residents want to do.  The utilities in particular have issues with doing work in private roads without the owner's consent.  This is a very different scenario to one where the developer went out of business 50/70/100 years ago and nobody is sure of the status of the road, only that it is less likely in that case to have an owner throwing spanners in the works.

newsgroupmonkey_

I live on a private road, Cul de sac. Houses built in 1958. No management. No agreement.

In the past, when it's needed work, we've either clubbed together, or as happened recently, one of the people on the road filled in the holes (he gets the stuff through his work), and we gave him a bottle of whisky.

It's going to need resurfacing in the next year or two and it's estimated that it'll be a couple of thousand each. We've all already been told. I don't foresee any issues.

DullGreyGuy

Section62 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

...
Houses on the road are substantial and sell for good money so clearly some are willing to take on unmaintained unadopted roads even when in very bad condition

There's unadopted roads, and then there are roads that were never going to be adopted.  The latter, especially where the road has been in existence for a very long time, might also be attractive to some people if they can have a sign at the end saying "Private Road - Residents Only".  It also helps if the area is upmarket and residents can i) afford to part with some cash for maintenance and ii) see the value of maintenance in terms of protecting the value of their property, and having friends round without risk of the potholes damaging the Tesla/Bentley/Range Rover etc.

There is no sign however there is a small modern church at the start of the road whose carpark goes onto the private road. That first 50m of road is in ok condition but a lot of patches, as soon as you are 5m pass the church entrance its like driving off road. 

It's fairly well to do area in Kent though cars are more Audi and Mercs than Bentleys and Lambos. Last time I went couldn't get as far as cousins house with our low ground clearance car but had already arranged to park with one of their neighbours before the chasm. 

It's not a matter of not affording it (according to cousin) as being unable to come to an agreement of how it should be shared and no one yet being annoyed enough to pay more than what they consider their fair share. Whilst there is a sale of one property a year by the looks of it its been a cluster of the same properties with many others having lived there since they were built so some at least may be more asset rich, cash poor.