Complicated will - partners with kids

ButterCheese

Hi All,

my partner and I are going to be making a will soon but want to thrash out some stuff before we go and see a solicitor.  But it's complicated - any suggestions?

My partner sold her house for 300k and we bought our new home together; we have 11 years left and around 60k left on the mortgage.  

We needed a mortgage to pay off my partners ex, and a small amount for moving costs.  The rest is a 2nd mortgage which we used to fix our roof, decking and garden.

We are currently both paying off my partners 12k credit card bills.

At the moment, most of the house belongs to my partner, but as I earn more and brought less debt to the new home, I think it's fair to factor in that I am "accruing" a bit more % of the house for each year that goes by.  I am also subtracting the 12k and 24k from her share for her credit card debt and paying off her ex respectively; I don't see that as a shared debt.

According to my calculations, byt the time the mortgage is paid off in 11 years, I would be entitled to 40% of the value of the house.  Does this sound fair?

DullGreyGuy

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

kimwp

Fair is an odd concept. You earn more, but do your circumstances allow you to earn more, where hers don't? What did she have to go through to "earn" that 300k? How will it work if you are injured and can't earn anything, does that mean you don't have a right to anything accrued from then on, even if you take on more of the household chores? If a mum goes on maternity leave with reduced pay, does that mean she is entitled to less?

Personally I think you own what you enter the relationship with, then while you are together, whatever is accrued is split 50:50, or whatever other split is agreed fair eg if someone prefers to work part time while not pulling more weight on the chores, then they have less fun money than the other. 

So I'd probably do it by percentage - she owns (300k minus her debts)/(current house value) percent +50% of the equity accrued by both of you

But presumably if you already bought the house, percentage ownership has already been agreed.

ButterCheese

DullGreyGuy said:

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

Thanks for pointing this out.  To be honest I don't know.  We had a mortgage advisor who found us the best deal, we agreed.  I have not read the deed of Trust and didn't even know that was part of the paperwork!

As we have a joint current account, all of our earnings go into there, and all of our bills/mortgage/debt payments come out of it.  My 2200 a month wages plus 900/month from renting my house.  Her earnings plus pension is about 1700.  She inherited her old house (that she sold) from an ex.

Basically, as she put in the entire sale price for her house, I think 50/50 is unfair on her.  However, we are now jointly paying off her ex, and her CC debt to the combined tune of 36k which I don't agree should be a joint debt. 

madbadrob

ButterCheese said:

DullGreyGuy said:

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

Thanks for pointing this out.  To be honest I don't know.  We had a mortgage advisor who found us the best deal, we agreed.  I have not read the deed of Trust and didn't even know that was part of the paperwork!

As we have a joint current account, all of our earnings go into there, and all of our bills/mortgage/debt payments come out of it.  My 2200 a month wages plus 900/month from renting my house.  Her earnings plus pension is about 1700.  She inherited her old house (that she sold) from an ex.

Basically, as she put in the entire sale price for her house, I think 50/50 is unfair on her.  However, we are now jointly paying off her ex, and her CC debt to the combined tune of 36k which I don't agree should be a joint debt. 

Yes you are being petty.  Her smoking habit you knew about before marrying her and tbh as no bearing on this.  

No I agree the debt of her ex is not your debt and I am not even sure why you both are paying a credit card debt if the ex husband has died (assuming this from you saying she inherrited the house)  Are you saying the credit card debt was in both their names and that is why she is paying it off? 

You have shown that you dont know enough to give a decent response to this because if you are joint tenants in the house then the one partner who survives after the first death will own the house outright anyway.  As others have said if its tenants in common its owned 50/50 anyway.

Have you spoke to your wife about this?  What are her feelings on this matter?

Rob

DullGreyGuy

ButterCheese said:

DullGreyGuy said:

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

Thanks for pointing this out.  To be honest I don't know.  We had a mortgage advisor who found us the best deal, we agreed.  I have not read the deed of Trust and didn't even know that was part of the paperwork!

As we have a joint current account, all of our earnings go into there, and all of our bills/mortgage/debt payments come out of it.  My 2200 a month wages plus 900/month from renting my house.  Her earnings plus pension is about 1700.  She inherited her old house (that she sold) from an ex.

Basically, as she put in the entire sale price for her house, I think 50/50 is unfair on her.  However, we are now jointly paying off her ex, and her CC debt to the combined tune of 36k which I don't agree should be a joint debt. 

First of all check if it is Joint Tenants or Tenants in Common, this will have been a question from your conveyencer - if its joint tenants then you legally each own 100% of the property and if one of you dies the survivor automatically still owns 100% so nothing needs to go into the will and they can't leave it to someone else unless you convert to Tenants in Common. 

If its Tenants in Common then there should have been a Deed of Trust but doesnt have to be, in the absence of one each tenant owns an equal share, ie given there are two of you on the deeds you each own 50%. This is a discrete holding and you are free to include it in your will to pass to whoever you like, can be your partner or a total stranger. 

Presumably you arent married/civil partnership? 

So £4,800 goes in, bills are paid, how is the spending from the surplus dealt with? Do you get to take more out as you put more in? Are savings in joint or single names? 

There is no right or wrong answer, it's what works for the two of you. Some think everyone should pay an equal share, others say it should be proportional to their earnings, some never mix their monies. Different strokes for different folks and just have the conversation

ButterCheese

kimwp said:

Personally I think you own what you enter the relationship with, then while you are together, whatever is accrued is split 50:50, or whatever other split is agreed fair eg if someone prefers to work part time while not pulling more weight on the chores, then they have less fun money than the other. 

Yes I agree.  The debt (and therefore 60% of our mortgage) was a result of her divorce, so was accrued before we bought the house together.  She doesn't choose to work part-time, but as self employed she gets as many hours as she can.  I think the chores do not form part of the argument, as I do most of the cooking and food shopping, and DIY, but she does all the cleaning and washing!

In any case, I am trying to work it out using data, and not feelings, as this is often where arguments get muddy. But as has been pointed out, we need to check the deed of Trust and go from there.  If it's 50/50 and we are both happy with that, I guess it doesn't have to be any more complicated.

ButterCheese

madbadrob said:

ButterCheese said:

DullGreyGuy said:

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

Thanks for pointing this out.  To be honest I don't know.  We had a mortgage advisor who found us the best deal, we agreed.  I have not read the deed of Trust and didn't even know that was part of the paperwork!

As we have a joint current account, all of our earnings go into there, and all of our bills/mortgage/debt payments come out of it.  My 2200 a month wages plus 900/month from renting my house.  Her earnings plus pension is about 1700.  She inherited her old house (that she sold) from an ex.

Basically, as she put in the entire sale price for her house, I think 50/50 is unfair on her.  However, we are now jointly paying off her ex, and her CC debt to the combined tune of 36k which I don't agree should be a joint debt. 

Yes you are being petty.  Her smoking habit you knew about before marrying her and tbh as no bearing on this.  

No I agree the debt of her ex is not your debt and I am not even sure why you both are paying a credit card debt if the ex husband has died (assuming this from you saying she inherrited the house)  Are you saying the credit card debt was in both their names and that is why she is paying it off? 

You have shown that you dont know enough to give a decent response to this because if you are joint tenants in the house then the one partner who survives after the first death will own the house outright anyway.  As others have said if its tenants in common its owned 50/50 anyway.

Have you spoke to your wife about this?  What are her feelings on this matter?

Rob

Alright, no need to be rude.  I'm aware of my lack of knowledge so just trying to learn.  No her ex isn't dead.  They had 2 houses and rented out 1.  They divorced, she was given the smaller house which she sold.  The CC debt was built up because she lived on her own and didn't earn enough to live on

madbadrob

ButterCheese said:

madbadrob said:

ButterCheese said:

DullGreyGuy said:

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

Thanks for pointing this out.  To be honest I don't know.  We had a mortgage advisor who found us the best deal, we agreed.  I have not read the deed of Trust and didn't even know that was part of the paperwork!

As we have a joint current account, all of our earnings go into there, and all of our bills/mortgage/debt payments come out of it.  My 2200 a month wages plus 900/month from renting my house.  Her earnings plus pension is about 1700.  She inherited her old house (that she sold) from an ex.

Basically, as she put in the entire sale price for her house, I think 50/50 is unfair on her.  However, we are now jointly paying off her ex, and her CC debt to the combined tune of 36k which I don't agree should be a joint debt. 

Yes you are being petty.  Her smoking habit you knew about before marrying her and tbh as no bearing on this.  

No I agree the debt of her ex is not your debt and I am not even sure why you both are paying a credit card debt if the ex husband has died (assuming this from you saying she inherrited the house)  Are you saying the credit card debt was in both their names and that is why she is paying it off? 

You have shown that you dont know enough to give a decent response to this because if you are joint tenants in the house then the one partner who survives after the first death will own the house outright anyway.  As others have said if its tenants in common its owned 50/50 anyway.

Have you spoke to your wife about this?  What are her feelings on this matter?

Rob

Alright, no need to be rude.  I'm aware of my lack of knowledge so just trying to learn.  No her ex isn't dead.  They had 2 houses and rented out 1.  They divorced, she was given the smaller house which she sold.  The CC debt was built up because she lived on her own and didn't earn enough to live on

Sorry you feel I was being rude but so you know I wasnt.  The comment regarding not knowing enough is based on the not knowing how you hold the house in terms of joint or tenants in common not that your intelligence is low.  Thank you for clarifying the way the house came about it.  So in reality the credit card debt is your wife's assuming I have understood the replystating it came about because she didnt have enough to live after the divorce.  

So with fear of being called rude again you were aware of this debt she had prior to marriage and whilst you may not like it you really are helping your wife to become solvent again. So whilst I understand you're feeling aggrieved it will benefit you both going forward. 

Rob

ButterCheese

madbadrob said:

ButterCheese said:

madbadrob said:

ButterCheese said:

DullGreyGuy said:

So you bought the house as Tenants in Common rather than Joint Tenants?

What is the share according to your Deed of Trust?

This is nothing to do with wills though, as Tenants in Common you own whatever percentage the Deed of Trust says unless you failed to draw up a Deed of Trust in which case you own it 50:50. Her will will only deal with the percentage that she owns and your percentage is untouched by her will as it's not hers. 

Were you to update the Deed of Trust to be 60% hers, 40% yours then she could leave you some of her 60% if she wants or she could leave all of it to your most hated person in the world. 

As to if the 60:40 split is fair? You say what the purchase price was, you dont say how much each are contributing to the mortgage, you dont comment on how you came to the agreement of how much each contributes, you dont say if one or the other are making non-financial contributions etc. 

Our house is 50:50 with my partner, she doesnt work, I paid all the deposit, all the mortgage payments and if I die before her she will own it outright. To me thats fair but every couple is different and its for you guys to decide what's fair but really should be done before buying it as you'll need their consent to change the Deed of Trust else you are stuck with whatever it says.

Thanks for pointing this out.  To be honest I don't know.  We had a mortgage advisor who found us the best deal, we agreed.  I have not read the deed of Trust and didn't even know that was part of the paperwork!

As we have a joint current account, all of our earnings go into there, and all of our bills/mortgage/debt payments come out of it.  My 2200 a month wages plus 900/month from renting my house.  Her earnings plus pension is about 1700.  She inherited her old house (that she sold) from an ex.

Basically, as she put in the entire sale price for her house, I think 50/50 is unfair on her.  However, we are now jointly paying off her ex, and her CC debt to the combined tune of 36k which I don't agree should be a joint debt. 

Yes you are being petty.  Her smoking habit you knew about before marrying her and tbh as no bearing on this.  

No I agree the debt of her ex is not your debt and I am not even sure why you both are paying a credit card debt if the ex husband has died (assuming this from you saying she inherrited the house)  Are you saying the credit card debt was in both their names and that is why she is paying it off? 

You have shown that you dont know enough to give a decent response to this because if you are joint tenants in the house then the one partner who survives after the first death will own the house outright anyway.  As others have said if its tenants in common its owned 50/50 anyway.

Have you spoke to your wife about this?  What are her feelings on this matter?

Rob

Alright, no need to be rude.  I'm aware of my lack of knowledge so just trying to learn.  No her ex isn't dead.  They had 2 houses and rented out 1.  They divorced, she was given the smaller house which she sold.  The CC debt was built up because she lived on her own and didn't earn enough to live on

Sorry you feel I was being rude but so you know I wasnt.  The comment regarding not knowing enough is based on the not knowing how you hold the house in terms of joint or tenants in common not that your intelligence is low.  Thank you for clarifying the way the house came about it.  So in reality the credit card debt is your wife's assuming I have understood the replystating it came about because she didnt have enough to live after the divorce.  

So with fear of being called rude again you were aware of this debt she had prior to marriage and whilst you may not like it you really are helping your wife to become solvent again. So whilst I understand you're feeling aggrieved it will benefit you both going forward. 

Rob

Ok that's another way of looking at it, that I didn't consider. It's made me think now, I don't mind jointly paying off the CC debt but the payments to the ex are still out of bounds for me. Purely because it was her decision to pay him so he'd shut up and be out of her life, which again could have been avoided if she'd just blocked him! 

Thanks for another perspective 

Emmia

OP - you refer to your "partner" are you married/Civil Partners or are you not legally "tied" in this respect?