Changing agents- I believe old agents provided a fraudulent "Introductions list" !

wannahouse

We are changing sales agents- the old ones were not good and only got 9 viewings in 2 months and two very low offers.
Upon leaving them the provided a sales introduction list to hand to the new agent.
It was TWO PAGES LONG!
However, they only did 9 viewings, two they booked cancelled.
But there is two pages of names provided!
I looked over that list and a few things stood out... I recognised some of the names on them so went back through old emails from 2019, when they last had our place on the market (and it failed to complete due to the flat cladding crisis).
Two of the names on there were of two 2019 buyers who offered and had that offers accepted, and then the 11 people from 2025 were tacked on the end of the list in order of the date they viewed, and not randomly peppered through the list, so I believe they have either mistakenly taken old data from our file from last time they marketed it in 2019 and added all of those people to the list, or they did it deliberately to pad out the list incase any of them come sniffing around looking to buy again this time.
I have emailed them and asked them to clarify whether a mistake has been made and if so to please reissue an accurate list from 2025, as only 9 people have actually viewed the place.

Can I ask them for evidence of the current introductions on this list, as it doesnt seem right?

So dodgy!
How many people get caught out paying a commission to agents not realising the list isnt accurate... I wonder how often agents do this?

anselld

I guess technically the 2019 people were first introduced by the Agent.   Where does it say there is a time limit on those introduced?

wannahouse

anselld said:

I guess technically the 2019 people were first introduced by the Agent.   Where does it say there is a time limit on those introduced?

Yes, the contract says within 6 months of the contract ending.... 6 yrs ago is pushing the envelope! 

Also the TPO ( property ombudsman)  says : When considering if an agent has introduced the buyer, TPO expects to see:

Evidence that the viewing has been booked, confirmed in writing to both seller and buyer and taken place. In this way, TPO will be in a position to state that, following the viewing, the agent that conducted the viewing introduced the buyer.
A viewing more than 6 months prior to dis-instruction without evidence of continuity of interest will not be deemed an effective introduction by the first agent to any subsequent sale post dis-instruction.

Grumpy_chap

wannahouse said:

We are changing sales agents- the old ones were not good and only got 9 viewings in 2 months and two very low offers.
Upon leaving them the provided a sales introduction list to hand to the new agent.
It was TWO PAGES LONG!
However, they only did 9 viewings, two they booked cancelled.
But there is two pages of names provided!
I looked over that list and a few things stood out... I recognised some of the names on them so went back through old emails from 2019, when they last had our place on the market (and it failed to complete due to the flat cladding crisis).
Two of the names on there were of two 2019 buyers who offered and had that offers accepted, and then the 11 people from 2025 were tacked on the end of the list in order of the date they viewed, and not randomly peppered through the list, so I believe they have either mistakenly taken old data from our file from last time they marketed it in 2019 and added all of those people to the list, or they did it deliberately to pad out the list incase any of them come sniffing around looking to buy again this time.
I have emailed them and asked them to clarify whether a mistake has been made and if so to please reissue an accurate list from 2025, as only 9 people have actually viewed the place.

Can I ask them for evidence of the current introductions on this list, as it doesnt seem right?

So dodgy!
How many people get caught out paying a commission to agents not realising the list isnt accurate... I wonder how often agents do this?

Does it actually matter?

It is highly unlikely that any of the introductions made in 2019 are in the market to buy currently.  Even if they are, they probably purchased something way back then and are now looking to move the next step up the ladder so your property would not be their target again.

Then there are 11 current introductions, which is probably correct given you acknowledge 9 viewings.  Only two others that were introduced and qualified as "serious" but chose not to view.

saajan_12

You highlight it was 2 pages of people, so was that (just) the 13 people or were there more? 

From what you mention, its 4 people you disagree with, which isn't huge. Just reply to them saying these 4 shouldn't be on the list with a brief reason. 

Then move on.. in the unlikely event one of those 4 do want to buy, you can argue the toss then about not having proof of a recent viewing with the first agent. 

wannahouse

Ofcourse it matters!
The list should be accurate- they are legally required to provide an honest list, not just make stuff up, and if one of those buys on that list DO view and offer through our current agent, we will be stung for a double commission.

I can't beleive you would ask "Does it matter"?
Its not the Wild wild west where people can act outside of the law!

DullGreyGuy

How is an "introduction" defined?

Presumably what they are showing is their mailing list that they will have used to introduce those people they have on their books as interested in properties like yours. How active those people are and if they are truly looking to buy or just being nosy is another matter. 

The TPO has a few things to say on the matter:

To provide clarity and certainty to both industry and consumers, there is a need to define what will constitute an effective introduction; the current lack of clarity in this area and lack of definition of introduction is at the root of the disputes.

and 

An effective introduction must evidence that the agent carried out an act that initiated the buyer’s reaction to the property. As such, there is a need for a defined transaction event to occur. It is TPO’s view that this can be most clearly evidenced by an agent carrying out a viewing.


The TPO basically admits there is a current problem which hasn't been fixed and secondly goes to suggest a viewing is best evidence it doesnt say it's the only evidence hence the problem persists. 

eddddy

wannahouse said:

Ofcourse it matters!
The list should be accurate- they are legally required to provide an honest list, not just make stuff up, and if one of those buys on that list DO view and offer through our current agent, we will be stung for a double commission.

In general, the process works like this... (to avoid double commission)...

Before instructing the new agent, you give the new agent the list of people introduced by the old agent, and agree with the new agent that...

• The new agent will not negotiate with anyone on the list
• The new agent will tell anyone on the list to go back to the old agent
• The new agent will not get a fee, if anyone on the list buys your property

If the new new agent is a member of the Property Ombudsman Scheme - the above process is mandatory.

If a new agent isn't a member, it's up to you to ensure that the new estate agent agrees with that process.

(If the new agent refuses to agree, consider avoiding that agent - and find one who is a member of the Property Ombudsman scheme.)



So that avoids you paying double commission - but based on what you say, the old agent is still being dishonest.

eddddy

DullGreyGuy said:

How is an "introduction" defined?
...
...

The TPO basically admits there is a current problem which hasn't been fixed and secondly goes to suggest a viewing is best evidence it doesnt say it's the only evidence hence the problem persists. 

As explained above, the seller sidesteps the problem by getting a list of people introduced by the old agent, and passing it to the new agent.

If the old agent is dishonest, and includes people on the list they shouldn't - that's unfair on the new agent. But the seller doesn't really suffer.



Edit to add...

But perhaps a scenario where the seller might suffer is if the old agent dishonestly claims they introduced somebody, and the seller goes on to sell to that person privately. But that's probably a very unusual edge case.

Grumpy_chap

wannahouse said:

Ofcourse it matters!
The list should be accurate- they are legally required to provide an honest list, not just make stuff up, and if one of those buys on that list DO view and offer through our current agent, we will be stung for a double commission.

I can't beleive you would ask "Does it matter"?
Its not the Wild wild west where people can act outside of the law!

From what you have said, the list is honest and not made up - the issue you raise seems to be that some of the stated people "introduced" are dated records.

That is why I asked if it matters.

From a practical perspective, anyone looking to buy a flat like yours back in 2019 will not have paused their whole life once they determined not to proceed to offer / purchase your flat back in 2019, just to wait until they could buy your flat in 2025.
Those individuals will have purchased whatever they purchased in 2019 / 2020.
A small number of those individuals may be in the market to move from whatever they purchased in 2019 / 2020 while you happen to have your flat back to the market.  The likelihood that this cohort are now again in the market for a flat like yours seems vanishingly slim as they more likely situation is that cohort are looking for the next move up the housing ladder to a family house.

That is probably academic as it does matter to you.
You may consider raising the issue with the EA.
The EA may provide evidence that they originally introduced this cohort back in 2019 but also re-introduced them in 2025.  That might be true.  It is not beyond the realms of probability that the EA looked at the old records from 2019 and wrote to the previous individuals along the lines of "You were interested in property X in 2019 but it was taken off the market then - I am pleased to share the excellent news that this property is now back available, please do get in touch if you remain interested."
On that basis, I suspect any request for the "historical" introductions to be curtailed will be resisted by the EA.

wannahouse

DullGreyGuy said:

How is an "introduction" defined?

Presumably what they are showing is their mailing list that they will have used to introduce those people they have on their books as interested in properties like yours. How active those people are and if they are truly looking to buy or just being nosy is another matter. 

The TPO has a few things to say on the matter:

To provide clarity and certainty to both industry and consumers, there is a need to define what will constitute an effective introduction; the current lack of clarity in this area and lack of definition of introduction is at the root of the disputes.

and 

An effective introduction must evidence that the agent carried out an act that initiated the buyer’s reaction to the property. As such, there is a need for a defined transaction event to occur. It is TPO’s view that this can be most clearly evidenced by an agent carrying out a viewing.


The TPO basically admits there is a current problem which hasn't been fixed and secondly goes to suggest a viewing is best evidence it doesnt say it's the only evidence hence the problem persists. 

From the TPO site: 

When considering if an agent has introduced the buyer, TPO expects to see:

Evidence that the viewing has been booked, confirmed in writing to both seller and buyer and taken place. In this way, TPO will be in a position to state that, following the viewing, the agent that conducted the viewing introduced the buyer.
A viewing more than 6 months prior to dis-instruction without evidence of continuity of interest will not be deemed an effective introduction by the first agent to any subsequent sale post dis-instruction.

The guidance issued by TPO outlines agent obligations upon dis-instruction, including disclosing to the seller a list of parties that they have introduced i.e. a list of those who have viewed the property. If the seller signed a sole selling rights agreement, the agent must advise the seller on dis-instruction, in writing, that a fee will be due if any party who was introduced during the sole selling rights period proceeds to exchange of contracts.

Our agent says in their contract: