Inheritance tax

madbadrob

Hmm ok ignoring the how is the home being funded with pensions etc.  If your mum is gifting 9k a year to her children and dies within 7 years these would fall within the realms of IHT however at 12k a year she is going to have to live some number of years to get anywhere close to the IHT threshold.  It  also sounds like there will be no requirement for probate.  Id therefore not worry too much about this.  I am sure if I am wrong on this RAS KP or similar will correct me

Rob

Keep_pedalling

emilyboxer said:

elsien said:

And the mental health team - if she is still under their care then they should be holding regular reviews where all these questions could be asked.

My money is now more firmly on the 117 because even the more incompetent local authorities tend not to leave it two years before asking for contributions. This must all be very stressful for you - you're going to never want to ask questions on here again!

I'm very greatful for the help and support I have received,  but yes I feel I've opened a can of worms !
If she is under a 117 form of support, her accumulation of her pension continues, and her wish to gift moneys may appear abusive I.e capacity questioned.
Any advice ?

I would suggest that until you have all the facts, that you don’t make any gifts. 

Keep_pedalling

madbadrob said:

Hmm ok ignoring the how is the home being funded with pensions etc.  If your mum is gifting 9k a year to her children and dies within 7 years these would fall within the realms of IHT however at 12k a year she is going to have to live some number of years to get anywhere close to the IHT threshold.  It  also sounds like there will be no requirement for probate.  Id therefore not worry too much about this.  I am sure if I am wrong on this RAS KP or similar will correct me

Rob

The one thing the OP does not need to worry about is IHT, and even if the gifting stops and her savings build up, probate can still be avoided by holding savings with any bank or BS at a level below that organisation’s probate limits (e.g. £50k with Barclays)

elsien

117 in itself has no impact on capacity. It’s very simply a mechanism to put support in place to try and keep people out of being readmitted  to mental health units. There are a lot of people who are in hospital, or in the community with 117 aftercare  whose capacity is not impaired, financially  or otherwise.

Capacity is time and decision specific. So it is possible not to be able to make the big decisions about some things such as where you live but still have capacity around finance or aspects of your health or whatever. And the presumption is that someone does have capacity unless evidence otherwise. So your starting point is that she knows what she is doing.

But if she was put in the care home and stays there as a best interests decision and was not allowed to go home, (which may or may not be the case), and if she was paying towards her care but didn’t understand why she needed to be in care then there is some overlap between those decisions.

So no this does not automatically mean that your mum doesn’t have capacity around making gifts. Or she may simply be making ann unwise decision - we all do that once in a while.  

However as things stand, because you both believed her care was being fully paid for and she didn’t have to contribute, gifting the surplus is an entirely reasonable decision to make.

What I was suggesting, although not very well, was that where there are overlaps between different areas It may just need a bit more consideration. So if your mother had to pay for her care but couldn’t understand the necessity for that then obviously that would impact on the information she needs to weigh up to decide whether and how much to gift. 

And certainly no one is suggesting that you are being abusive. There is a grey area in the middle sometimes, and that is where you are sitting at the moment. But you’re looking for more information to try and resolve it, and right now that’s probably all you can do until you have a clearer picture of what is going on. 

And if at the end of it you are still unclear then go back to the mental health team. They are the  professionals, it’s what they are paid to do and you can ask them if they have any concerns about her ability to gift these amounts if you are uncertain or want to cover yourself. 

emilyboxer

elsien said:

117 in itself has no impact on capacity. It’s very simply a mechanism to put support in place to try and keep people out of being readmitted  to mental health units. There are a lot of people who are in hospital, or in the community with 117 aftercare  whose capacity is not impaired, financially  or otherwise.

Capacity is time and decision specific. So it is possible not to be able to make the big decisions about some things such as where you live but still have capacity around finance or aspects of your health or whatever. And the presumption is that someone does have capacity unless evidence otherwise. So your starting point is that she knows what she is doing.

But if she was put in the care home and stays there as a best interests decision and was not allowed to go home, (which may or may not be the case), and if she was paying towards her care but didn’t understand why she needed to be in care then there is some overlap between those decisions.

So no this does not automatically mean that your mum doesn’t have capacity around making gifts. Or she may simply be making ann unwise decision - we all do that once in a while.  

However as things stand, because you both believed her care was being fully paid for and she didn’t have to contribute, gifting the surplus is an entirely reasonable decision to make.

What I was suggesting, although not very well, was that where there are overlaps between different areas It may just need a bit more consideration. So if your mother had to pay for her care but couldn’t understand the necessity for that then obviously that would impact on the information she needs to weigh up to decide whether and how much to gift. 

And certainly no one is suggesting that you are being abusive. There is a grey area in the middle sometimes, and that is where you are sitting at the moment. But you’re looking for more information to try and resolve it, and right now that’s probably all you can do until you have a clearer picture of what is going on. 

And if at the end of it you are still unclear then go back to the mental health team. They are the  professionals, it’s what they are paid to do and you can ask them if they have any concerns about her ability to gift these amounts if you are uncertain or want to cover yourself. 

Thank you elsien, that precisely reflects the current situation.
I will pose the relevant questions tommorow, and obtain witness statements from her mental health social worker/team if necessary to protect her decisions, and my position.

Again, many thanks for staying with my often confusing explanations, it has both informed me and influenced my approach to this situation enormously.

pollypenny

Good luck, Emily.  It's a maze of regulations and funding that you have to negotiate.  

Time2count

Hi, not wanting to open another can of worms, but wondered how long the £9k/ year gifting has been going on? If your mum was claiming full HB the gifts could have an impact on that as well? 
I noted you said she keeps £6k in savings and then gifts when her money goes above that level?

elsien

If housing benefit have not raised it as an issue then it is probably better to let sleeping dogs lie at this stage. Although the savings limit for housing benefit is 16K anyway, not 6.