Inheritance tax

emilyboxer

bobster2 said:

emilyboxer said:

Mum was receiving housing benefit prior to her admission to, and subsequent, transfer from a hospital - where she had received a mental health, and auzheimer diagnosis.
She transfered to a nursing home, and since then has continued receiving her pensions approx 3 years.

Her auzheimer symptoms have responded well to medications, but, she sadly remains with a mental health condition which requires continued company to avoid neglecting herself.

If she needs 24 hour supervision paid for by CHC due to a mental health condition - it is very hard to see how she could have capacity to make gifts. The threshold for full CHC for mental health problems is very high. If she is at such extreme risk of neglecting herself and her needs that she gets CHC - how can she be deemed to have capacity to give away a significant portion of her income?? When she has no savings. That is arguably neglecting her future needs.

Small customary gifts might be different - if there was a pre-existing pattern and they were small relative to savings. But you said she had no savings at all.

emilyboxer said:

I queried her receipt of attendance allowance when I obtained power of attorney, which ceased. I have been waiting for three months +  for any outcome/repayment process.

If she has full CHC this is correct - AA should stop.

Mum keeps £6,000 in her account, then wanted to gift her 4 children money that goes above this to help with their costs and her grandchildren.
This accumulates with her pensions both private, NHS and state.

Her condition is complex, but does enable her to make choices and decisions, she does not want to live alone and became self harming, when living independently hence her admission into a mental health ward, with resulting diagnosis of a long standing personality disorder and additional beginning of early stage auzheimers.

From the MH hospital she was transferred to the nursing home under the supervision of her Mental Health Social Worker.

She lives in the care home with very little input, takes her medications, just requires encouragement to mix with others and has her meals cooked. 

This has all been paid for by her CHC, which I am now dubious of....
Our council is bankrupt/failing and extremely inefficient.

She has been well enough to instruct re her finances, but I was advised to obtain POA at the time for future planning/worsening of her condition.

It is all so confusing....

Well enough to make decisions, but deemed unwell enough to be granted full CHC.




 

elsien

As you are acting on an instructed basis at present, I would suggest that you do discuss with your mother the current situation and any potential implications from continuing to gift and the need to wait while you do some more investigations.
For your own protection you need to clarify (and I would also record) whether you are acting on her instructions, or making a best interests decision on her behalf if you feel she may not have capacity around the financial decisions that she is making. 

Just to add another layer of complexity, was she under section 3 at all in hospital? I am now wondering whether there is some confusion around the health funding and whether it is CHC funding or her place is being funded by 117 aftercare which is a different system again? Note - 117 won't apply if she was never sectioned or if she was only on S2. 

Keep_pedalling

emilyboxer said:

Keep_pedalling said:

emilyboxer said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If this gifting is being done by the attorney then this an abuse of their authority and could see them land in big trouble with the OPG. 

Big trouble with the OPG, I do hope not!
This is my mother's choice-please do not infer abuse on my behalf....

That is deeply offending.

Sorry I did not mean to offend, but I did say if, not that you actually were. 

As this is what your mother is choosing to do then the potencial problem here though is that she has no savings and this could end up being classed as deliberate deprivation of assets as she may very well need this money in the future if the financing situation changes. 

I think it would be wise for me to advise her to cease any gifting, apart from birthdays until I can obtain accurate information related to her funding status.
I have applied for a copy of her CHC award.
I will also meet with the care home .anger to see if I can obtain information on her review assessment and qualifying status.

I wish I wasn't her POA, so much responsibility in checking the work of other people......
I am a nurse and if I made such errors, oversights in my work,  I'd be sacked very quickly !!

It is a big responsibility, and made somewhat more difficult in your case as your mother has sufficient mental capacity to instruct you to do things you are quite rightly uncomfortably in doing. 

I think your approach is the correct one, so good luck with that conversation with her, and once again sorry if my earlier post caused you any distress. 

emilyboxer

elsien said:

As you are acting on an instructed basis at present, I would suggest that you do discuss with your mother the current situation and any potential implications from continuing to gift and the need to wait while you do some more investigations.
For your own protection you need to clarify (and I would also record) whether you are acting on her instructions, or making a best interests decision on her behalf if you feel she may not have capacity around the financial decisions that she is making. 

Just to add another layer of complexity, was she under section 3 at all in hospital? I am now wondering whether there is some confusion around the health funding and whether it is CHC funding or her place is being funded by 117 aftercare which is a different system again? Note - 117 won't apply if she was never sectioned or if she was only on S2. 

Hi, I'm sure she was sectioned.
Then released into the care of her current care home.

emilyboxer

Keep_pedalling said:

emilyboxer said:

Keep_pedalling said:

emilyboxer said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If this gifting is being done by the attorney then this an abuse of their authority and could see them land in big trouble with the OPG. 

Big trouble with the OPG, I do hope not!
This is my mother's choice-please do not infer abuse on my behalf....

That is deeply offending.

Sorry I did not mean to offend, but I did say if, not that you actually were. 

As this is what your mother is choosing to do then the potencial problem here though is that she has no savings and this could end up being classed as deliberate deprivation of assets as she may very well need this money in the future if the financing situation changes. 

I think it would be wise for me to advise her to cease any gifting, apart from birthdays until I can obtain accurate information related to her funding status.
I have applied for a copy of her CHC award.
I will also meet with the care home .anger to see if I can obtain information on her review assessment and qualifying status.

I wish I wasn't her POA, so much responsibility in checking the work of other people......
I am a nurse and if I made such errors, oversights in my work,  I'd be sacked very quickly !!

It is a big responsibility, and made somewhat more difficult in your case as your mother has sufficient mental capacity to instruct you to do things you are quite rightly uncomfortably in doing. 

I think your approach is the correct one, so good luck with that conversation with her, and once again sorry if my earlier post caused you any distress. 

Thank you so much for your advice.
I'm sorry that I held a defensive attitude towards your comment, it touched a nerve in that it was exactly what I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable about.
I have arranged an appointment with the care home manager for tommorow.

elsien

emilyboxer said:

elsien said:

As you are acting on an instructed basis at present, I would suggest that you do discuss with your mother the current situation and any potential implications from continuing to gift and the need to wait while you do some more investigations.
For your own protection you need to clarify (and I would also record) whether you are acting on her instructions, or making a best interests decision on her behalf if you feel she may not have capacity around the financial decisions that she is making. 

Just to add another layer of complexity, was she under section 3 at all in hospital? I am now wondering whether there is some confusion around the health funding and whether it is CHC funding or her place is being funded by 117 aftercare which is a different system again? Note - 117 won't apply if she was never sectioned or if she was only on S2. 

Hi, I'm sure she was sectioned.
Then released into the care of her current care home.

It will still depend what section she was on.  S2 is for up to 28 days then in many cases people come off section and stay as an informal patient with a DoLS in place if they can't agree to stay due to their capacity. S3 is for up to 6 months and that would give the 117 eligibility. Do either of those ring a bell? 

Her mental health social worker will know if she is entitled to the 117 after care (or the duty team if no longer allocated) but again there should still be an annual review. 
More information here - not to read now because you have enough to be going on with at the moment anyway but for future reference if it turns out that this is how her place is being paid rather than the CHC funding. Both health funded but different streams and criteria. 
Section 117 aftercare - Under the Mental Health Act 1983  The good news is that if it is primarily 117 funding then in most cases she would not need to make a financial contribution towards her care and you can both breathe a sigh of relief. 

Ask the care home manager to check the records for any/all reviews - care act, CHC or 117, just to cover all the bases. Also ask if there is currently a DoLS standard authorisation requested or in place - if there is, it means she lacks capacity to agree to stay at the care home to receive care and support which could impact on her financial decision making in the bigger areas if she does not understand all the relevant factors. 

emilyboxer

elsien said:

emilyboxer said:

elsien said:

As you are acting on an instructed basis at present, I would suggest that you do discuss with your mother the current situation and any potential implications from continuing to gift and the need to wait while you do some more investigations.
For your own protection you need to clarify (and I would also record) whether you are acting on her instructions, or making a best interests decision on her behalf if you feel she may not have capacity around the financial decisions that she is making. 

Just to add another layer of complexity, was she under section 3 at all in hospital? I am now wondering whether there is some confusion around the health funding and whether it is CHC funding or her place is being funded by 117 aftercare which is a different system again? Note - 117 won't apply if she was never sectioned or if she was only on S2. 

Hi, I'm sure she was sectioned.
Then released into the care of her current care home.

It will still depend what section she was on.  S2 is for up to 28 days then in many cases people come off section and stay as an informal patient with a DoLS in place if they can't agree to stay due to their capacity. S3 is for up to 6 months and that would give the 117 eligibility. Do either of those ring a bell? 

Her mental health social worker will know if she is entitled to the 117 after care (or the duty team if no longer allocated) but again there should still be an annual review. 
More information here - not to read now because you have enough to be going on with at the moment anyway but for future reference if it turns out that this is how her place is being paid rather than the CHC funding. Both health funded but different streams and criteria. 
Section 117 aftercare - Under the Mental Health Act 1983  The good news is that if it is primarily 117 funding then in most cases she would not need to make a financial contribution towards her care and you can both breathe a sigh of relief. 

Ask the care home manager to check the records for any/all reviews - care act, CHC or 117, just to cover all the bases. Also ask if there is currently a DoLS standard authorisation requested or in place - if there is, it means she lacks capacity to agree to stay at the care home to receive care and support which could impact on her financial decision making in the bigger areas if she does not understand all the relevant factors. 

Dear Mrs xxx

I have checked all of our systems and xxxx CHC have no record of any CHC funding agreement in place. As far as I can see, we have never received an application for CHC funding for your mother.

You may wish to contact the Local Authority as we do not hold records/information for who they maybe funding.

Back to her care home manager, meeting scheduled tommorow.

elsien

And the mental health team - if she is still under their care then they should be holding regular reviews where all these questions could be asked.

My money is now more firmly on the 117 because even the more incompetent local authorities tend not to leave it two years before asking for contributions. This must all be very stressful for you - you're going to never want to ask questions on here again!

emilyboxer

She has a duty mental health care worker whom I can try to contact as well.

emilyboxer

elsien said:

And the mental health team - if she is still under their care then they should be holding regular reviews where all these questions could be asked.

My money is now more firmly on the 117 because even the more incompetent local authorities tend not to leave it two years before asking for contributions. This must all be very stressful for you - you're going to never want to ask questions on here again!

I'm very greatful for the help and support I have received,  but yes I feel I've opened a can of worms !
If she is under a 117 form of support, her accumulation of her pension continues, and her wish to gift moneys may appear abusive I.e capacity questioned.
Any advice ?