Can’t locate wife’s late brothers daughter.

madbadrob

RAS said:

madbadrob said:

RAS said:

madbadrob said:

RAS said:

I'd suggest setting up a short-term, free account in Ancestry. Since you have this person's essential details, dob, location of birth, parents, sibling etc, set up a tree, going back at least that far, preferably with grandparents. Then ask it to search Scotland. Would take an hour if you have the basic information.

If the missing person has a middle name or unusual surname try checking the marriages in scotlandspeople, though it's of limited use if the surname is MacKenzie or Smith.

I'd also check deaths on scotlandspeople as they are indexed by mother's maiden name.

Leave it two or three days, search Scotland again and it may offer you an electoral roll record for 2010-18 or earlier. That works almost as well in Scotland as in England and if they haven't married is even better.  Use 192.com to check for other occupants.

That might help identify one or two likely marriages in Scotland if relevant. You'd need to buy the marriage certificates but it's an executor's cost.

Not fool-proof, but I reckon about 50% of descendants I'm trying to trace, including cross-border both ways. Had people born in Devon pop up in Inverness and people from Edinburgh pop up in Devon and Somerset.

Alas Ancestry familyu searches wont provide anything if they are living or not been declared deceased and they were born less than 100 years ago. 



Rob

I'm trying to translate this. 

I research a lot of descendants of MRCAs in both Scotland and England, as well as emigrants. I frequently hide the fact that I have postal addresses from those whose DNA match I've worked out from almost nil information. When I do contact descendants who aren't on a FH website I always explain very carefully the public sources I used to trace them. I may have used social media as well, but avoid mentioning it as it can be like stalking. 

I've even got one family whose name was completely changed in difficult circumstances. I'd desperately like them to do a DNA test given the paucity of candidates but don't know whether they are aware of the background so I'm leaving them alone. The irony is that one of the descendants is an heir hunter. 

Canada is almost impossible and Australia and NZ not far behind, although if people have remained in the same family property it's worth a punt. Was really peed off when I tracked another of this family to NZ and then discovered he'd died the previous year from the recent obit.

So Ancestry do not give out publicly names of people who are considered living.  

They do provide electoral roll information for 2002-2018 from the edited roll. It doesn't take a lot to cross-reference with 192.com.  And BMD information up to 2005-2007 depending the event.

Births and deaths in England and deaths in Scotland are indexed on government websites up to about three month ago, certainly for the previous year.

That's not the same as avoiding giving out personal details of living people on trees. 

It always makes me laugh that people think by selecting not to be shown on the edited Electoral roll that they are undiscoverable.  As you allude to the hardest part is convincing people that youre not a scam artist. 

Rob

It's not Ancestry who make the decision on tree information, individual default to "living" but it's horribly easy to hit the button making someone deceased and open up the record. 

I understand that there is a "secure" electoral roll onto which people who really need security can be entered, but it's a challenge to get on there.

There is one electoral roll taht everyone in the UK must be on.  Its a criminal offence to nt give the counilyour details (many each year dont bother but thats another story)  Each year when you confirm notyhing as changed there is a box that you can cross to have your name removed from the edited version.  The latter is the version thats available to companies etc and what is then available through sites like 192. The unedited version is available in the local area to where the person resides and that is what makes it difficult as you have to travel to view it.  Not sure therefore what you mean by a secure electoral roll.

The 100 year rule is one thats been agreed across the genealogy and archival world regarding records.  Its likely in the future to be extended as more people libe beyond 100 years. I have tried to have my details on my tree made public but Ancestry wont allow me to unless I put in a death date which obviously makes it pointless. 

The GRO in ingland do not list births and deaths on their index after 2023and this is one of the prime resources we HH use. I wisah they listed them in the online index every quarter.  I can of course travel to one of 7 locations where I can search the paper indexes which are as you say updated quarterly.  In todays electronic world I do not know why these cant be updated electronically on a weekly basis.  We have been fighting since 2005 to get the marriages indexed on a searchable digitial databse but for what ever reason the GRo are not doing this

192.com have the electoral roll to the end of 2024 which is whats being used right now.  We have just in my area had the annual update paperwork so the 2025 should be released shortly. 

I dont search scotland people as much as others so cant say when their online databases are searchable to.  
Rob

silvercar

@madbadrob, can I just say how interesting I find your posts.

Savvy_Sue

madbadrob said:

There is one electoral roll taht everyone in the UK must be on.  Its a criminal offence to nt give the counilyour details (many each year dont bother but thats another story)  Each year when you confirm notyhing as changed there is a box that you can cross to have your name removed from the edited version.  The latter is the version thats available to companies etc and what is then available through sites like 192. The unedited version is available in the local area to where the person resides and that is what makes it difficult as you have to travel to view it.  Not sure therefore what you mean by a secure electoral roll.

But the electoral roll which is used in polling stations has everyone on it, and there IS a confidential roll which leads to anonymous voting. https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/register-vote/register-vote-anonymously

Obviously really difficult to get onto that, and you have to renew it each year. That might be the secure one which RAS refers to. 

RAS

rob, I had to contact a second cousin telling them to close records for their young grandchildren, albeit pre-Covid. That didn't even include links to public records.

Ancestry will still however delivers information about a living person if one of the other people on the English record is deceased. And it then links to the electoral rolls up to 2018. It's how I tracked one family with an NPE recently.

I've just checked scotlandspeople and the death of a cousin earlier this year is indexed, although certificates on-line are only available for 2023. That's not an issue for researchers on site, based on previous experience. It's really annoying when you hope to track them down and make contact and they died weeks previously. Sometimes the informant is useful, although I stand back for quite a while before considering contacting them.

Re the HH, I haven't contacted that family at all because of the sensitivity. If one pops up as a DNA link I'd be very careful to clarify what they know or want to know before disclosing anything. And I'm just leaving other people's incorrect trees without comment.

madbadrob

Savvy_Sue said:

madbadrob said:

There is one electoral roll taht everyone in the UK must be on.  Its a criminal offence to nt give the counilyour details (many each year dont bother but thats another story)  Each year when you confirm notyhing as changed there is a box that you can cross to have your name removed from the edited version.  The latter is the version thats available to companies etc and what is then available through sites like 192. The unedited version is available in the local area to where the person resides and that is what makes it difficult as you have to travel to view it.  Not sure therefore what you mean by a secure electoral roll.

But the electoral roll which is used in polling stations has everyone on it, and there IS a confidential roll which leads to anonymous voting. https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/register-vote/register-vote-anonymously

Obviously really difficult to get onto that, and you have to renew it each year. That might be the secure one which RAS refers to. 

Sue

This is interesting and not one id ever heard of and that is included in my 20 odd years as a political activist.  I get the reasoning behind it and agree wholeheartedly with it.  Thanks for this information and does answer the question why recent heir couldnt understand how I had found their address when they had opted out of being on the electoral roll.  I jujst assumed they meant the edited version.  With this annonymous one even political parties have no access to it.   

Id always assumed women/men hiding from DV could be traced via the unedited electoral roll but this protects them and I applaud it being there.  

Thanbks for the education Sue

Rob

Olinda99

The first question I would ask is: what do you know about the daughter? Do you know her full maiden name including any christian names,  her date of birth and her place of birth?  Do you know the names, dob and marriage date / place of her parents? Also of her sister?

RAS

Savvy_Sue said

Obviously really difficult to get onto that, and you have to renew it each year. That might be the secure one which RAS refers to. 

That is the one I referred to. Only learned about when someone who'd left a DV situation came here asking how to get on it. And someone posted the link.

Obviously for most purposes searching the edited version has it's limitations but occasionally junior will forget to tick the box for a year or two. 😊

Savvy_Sue

madbadrob said:

Savvy_Sue said:

madbadrob said:

There is one electoral roll taht everyone in the UK must be on.  Its a criminal offence to nt give the counilyour details (many each year dont bother but thats another story)  Each year when you confirm notyhing as changed there is a box that you can cross to have your name removed from the edited version.  The latter is the version thats available to companies etc and what is then available through sites like 192. The unedited version is available in the local area to where the person resides and that is what makes it difficult as you have to travel to view it.  Not sure therefore what you mean by a secure electoral roll.

But the electoral roll which is used in polling stations has everyone on it, and there IS a confidential roll which leads to anonymous voting. https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/register-vote/register-vote-anonymously

Obviously really difficult to get onto that, and you have to renew it each year. That might be the secure one which RAS refers to. 

Sue

This is interesting and not one id ever heard of and that is included in my 20 odd years as a political activist.  I get the reasoning behind it and agree wholeheartedly with it.  Thanks for this information and does answer the question why recent heir couldnt understand how I had found their address when they had opted out of being on the electoral roll.  I jujst assumed they meant the edited version.  With this annonymous one even political parties have no access to it.   

Id always assumed women/men hiding from DV could be traced via the unedited electoral roll but this protects them and I applaud it being there.  

Thanbks for the education Sue

Rob

You are very welcome, I'm not sure if I heard about it via the means below or because DH has been a clerk at polling stations - or both! It's also possible I'd heard about it when I was working, because of its use in DV situations. 

RAS said:

Savvy_Sue said

Obviously really difficult to get onto that, and you have to renew it each year. That might be the secure one which RAS refers to. 

That is the one I referred to. Only learned about when someone who'd left a DV situation came here asking how to get on it. And someone posted the link.

Obviously for most purposes searching the edited version has it's limitations but occasionally junior will forget to tick the box for a year or two. 😊

Easily done. And glad our minds were working to the same end!