difficult residual beneficiary

madbadrob

doodling said:

Hi,

madbadrob said:

doodling said:

Hi,

HobgoblinBT said:

Perhaps include a letter to the remaining unpaid beneficiary taking their action of banking the cheque is deemed to be acceptance of the estate accounts.

That is legally pointless and won't achieve what you think it would.  The beneficiary is owed the money, they are entitled to it, and you can't unilaterally impose conditions.

Why on earth would you make someone who apparently hates you jump through hoops to get their money when the lowest hassle approach is simply to give it to them?

How can the OP send him his legacy when he refused to accept that the figure the OP says he is owed is being contested by the beneficiary.  The OP is doing just this by sending him the cheque and is warning him that by cashing the cheque she is of the belief he accepts the accounts.  She could make it even harder and remove more of his share (and those of the others who they have already paid) the legal fees by applying to the court for the accounts to be confirmed.  

In reality the OP wants this settled yesterday and its the beneficiary that is holding this up.  

Rob

No, the beneficiary is entitled to their bequest as correctly calculated by the Administrator and the Administrator should be ensuring that they receive it.  Some sort of "full and final acceptance" wording might work in a contractual context where the concept of offer and acceptance applies but a bequest isn't a contract and can't be negotiated in that way.

If the beneficiary wants to make an issue of this then the best option for them is to take the money and then sue the Administrator for the rest.  Fancy words accompanying a cheque won't stop the Administrator being forced by a court to pay more if it is found that they got their sums wrong.

There is no obligation for any beneficiary to agree anything in order to receive an inheritance so placing a requirement to agree the accounts on the beneficiaries is an obstacle that the OP has created - they are holding things up.

( I do of course suggest that executors / administrators agree accounts with beneficiaries but that shouldn't be a prerequisite to anyone getting their inheritance ).

I have covered this slightly in my response to Keep Pedalling just before this reply.  

I agree with you now that youre response is clearer than the first (probably my own misunderstanding more than your phrasing) 

Ive never been at the point where any beneficaries have argued their share of the payout but I have also always been advised to get the agreement of each beneficiary in case someone as an issue with their share and this can be explained and dealt with so I had gotten it into my head after 20 years in the field that this was the legal way to do things.  

Rob

Hammy21

Hi rob,

They have been given the accounts and 90% of the receipts, as well as the opening and closing bank statements of both the personal bank account and the estate account, along with all receipts from assets sold. Additionally, they have been offered the opportunity to view all documents at their convenience. The accounts are 100% accurate I have no worries there. I am checking about the signing of estate accounts, which I now know is not legally required. 

Hammy21

Sorry one more question.........the solicitor requested all the receipts and all bank statements, and even the checkbook, does anyone think this is reasonable, im happy for the beneficiary to see them, but i dont want to hand all this over incase a few big receipts 'disappear', is my offer for them to come to my house to view them under my supervision not enough? Section 25b of the Estates Act only requests that a PA give an inventory and account, of which I have given much more. I'm not worried about going to court as my accounts are accurate (I'm an accountant)

Hammy21

madbadrob said:

Keep_pedalling said:

madbadrob said:

The solicitor is asking for a complete look at the estate incomings outgoings etc because (this is a guess) their client is suggesting that you have not been honest etc.  I disagree with Keep Pedalings view that a beneficiary doesnt have a right to see the accounts.  Intestate estates technically are residual estates and all beneficiaries of residual estates have a right to see the accounts of the deceased that the PR is using to pay the legacies.

Also no payment should have been made to any beneficiary until ALL the beneficiaries have agreed to the accounts being accuarate.  If there is now a claim through the courts and the courts uphold that the PR as made an error they will then have no option but to try and recover the monies from the others or unfortunately fork this out of their own pocket.

As you have paid all the other beneficiaries it may be wise contacting them and forewarning them that there is an ongoing issue and that whilst yoyu have done everything you believe to be correct could they not spend ther legacies until this as been cleared up.  Id assume most would be happy to do this.  

Probate and more so letters of Admon are not jobs id suggest any person do unless they are strong enough to deal with the hassles that may come with it.

As for the OP I would contact the police and ask them to deal with a case of harrassment, the threats etc on social media should be enough for them to start to investigate.  Id also stop dealing with the beneficiary and just deal with his solicitors

Rob

So you also disagree with section 25(b) of the Administration of Estates Act 1925? 

25b is in relation to a PR being required by a court to produce under oath etc.  As I have said residuary beneficaries have a right to be shown the accounts of an estate because they have a right tio kbnow how their share value as been reached.  In regards to an intestate estate, the entitled heirs are all considered residual beneficiaries.  

My one legal error in my response is that the beneficaries do not need to agree that their share of the estate is correct and that they accept it before payout.  That I guess is where myself and others in this industry go beyond what is required.  Would you be happy to received 5k of an estate and not check that the PR is not paying themselves 20k 

An account of the residue of the estate is the only way to show that you  have handled the estate in the correct manner.  So no I dont disagree with 25(b) I disagree with your interpretation of it.  

Residuary beneficiaries are additionally entitled to receive a copy of the estate accounts, once these have been prepared, so that they can see how their share of the inheritance has been calculated from https://www.butcherandrews.co.uk/2022/05/what-rights-do-estate-beneficiaries-have-to-information/

In fact, other than the personal representatives of the estate, usually the only other people who have the right to see an estate’s accounts are the residuary beneficiaries of that estate. from https://www.rochelegal.co.uk/what-rights-do-beneficiaries-have-to-see-information-about-an-estate/

I could get more if you require me to do so.

Rob 

They have been given the accounts, distribution account and 90% of the receipts, as well as the opening and closing bank statements of both the personal bank account and the estate account, along with all receipts from assets sold and obviously invoices from professionals for disposing of the assets. Additionally, they have been offered the opportunity to view all documents at their convenience, supervised by me. The accounts are 100% accurate, I have no worries there. Couldn't care less if they take me to court. I am just checking about the signing of estate accounts, which I now know is not legally required. 

doodling

Hi,

Hammy21 said:

Sorry one more question.........the solicitor requested all the receipts and all bank statements, and even the checkbook, does anyone think this is reasonable, im happy for the beneficiary to see them, but i dont want to hand all this over incase a few big receipts 'disappear', is my offer for them to come to my house to view them under my supervision not enough? Section 25b of the Estates Act only requests that a PA give an inventory and account, of which I have given much more. I'm not worried about going to court as my accounts are accurate (I'm an accountant)

It all depends on what the generally accepted definition of an "inventory and account" is and I don't know what that is.  It could range from a simple running total of income and outgoings that might fit on one or two sheets of paper through to every single document from which that tally has been calculated.

How much paperwork is there?  Is it something you can scan (or even just photograph on your phone) or would that take a significant amount of time?  Ideally you'd just share a load of electronic copies using Onedrive or GoogleDrive or whatever and let the beneficiary and their legal advisor pick though it at their leisure (in some ways the more documentation you provide at this point the better if you think that the beneficiary is going to pay a solicitor to read it all!).  If that is impractical then providing copies of the key documents with an invitation to view stuff like chequebook stubs that are harder to copy seems fair to me.

boingy

The solicitor is trying it on. Just tell them that you have provided more information than you are obliged to provide, that you have distributed the estate as per the will and that you consider the matter concluded and your duties discharged. Definitely don't send them the originals of anything. In fact, I'd suggest not engaging further with the solicitor. If they ask you for anything else just repeat the answer you have already given them.

elsien

The solicitor isn’t trying it on, the beneficiary is.

The solicitor is requesting what the beneficiary instructing them has told them to request. They may well have told the beneficiary that it is completely unnecessary, but are still happy to take their money to write the letter. And presumably equally happy to take their money to go through all the accounts, to produce the answer that the OP gave in the first place. 

I wouldn’t be sending them anything. 

Hammy21

boingy said:

The solicitor is trying it on. Just tell them that you have provided more information than you are obliged to provide, that you have distributed the estate as per the will and that you consider the matter concluded and your duties discharged. Definitely don't send them the originals of anything. In fact, I'd suggest not engaging further with the solicitor. If they ask you for anything else just repeat the answer you have already given them.

thank you , that is what i have done, i have spoken to s solicitor and they said I have supplied more detail than anyone would ever give, an inventory and account is basically a statement describing how the assets were valued and sold , what the big expenses where and then basic accounts like a balance sheet. They are entitled to no further information. So I have told their solicitor that they will not be receiving any further detail and asked them to proceed through proper legal channels should they suspect mishandling. What concerns me more is that the solicitor is a friend and used company headed paper to threaten me with no legal basis for their request, also they supplied no reference number on the letter, so I don't believe the client paid for this letter and i feel like reporting the solicitor. 

Hammy21

elsien said:

The solicitor isn’t trying it on, the beneficiary is.

The solicitor is requesting what the beneficiary instructing them has told them to request. They may well have told the beneficiary that it is completely unnecessary, but are still happy to take their money to write the letter. And presumably equally happy to take their money to go through all the accounts, to produce the answer that the OP gave in the first place. 

I wouldn’t be sending them anything. 

elsien said:

The solicitor isn’t trying it on, the beneficiary is.

The solicitor is requesting what the beneficiary instructing them has told them to request. They may well have told the beneficiary that it is completely unnecessary, but are still happy to take their money to write the letter. And presumably equally happy to take their money to go through all the accounts, to produce the answer that the OP gave in the first place. 

I wouldn’t be sending them anything. 

I find it unethical that the solicitor has done this, should they not inform the client of the law rather than just pondering to their petty grievance, he had absolutley to legal basis to request such information from me and he sent the letter without a refernce number on the company headed paper, which i believe is to intimidate me. The solicitor is a friend of the client. 

Hammy21

doodling said:

Hi,

Hammy21 said:

Sorry one more question.........the solicitor requested all the receipts and all bank statements, and even the checkbook, does anyone think this is reasonable, im happy for the beneficiary to see them, but i dont want to hand all this over incase a few big receipts 'disappear', is my offer for them to come to my house to view them under my supervision not enough? Section 25b of the Estates Act only requests that a PA give an inventory and account, of which I have given much more. I'm not worried about going to court as my accounts are accurate (I'm an accountant)

It all depends on what the generally accepted definition of an "inventory and account" is and I don't know what that is.  It could range from a simple running total of income and outgoings that might fit on one or two sheets of paper through to every single document from which that tally has been calculated.

How much paperwork is there?  Is it something you can scan (or even just photograph on your phone) or would that take a significant amount of time?  Ideally you'd just share a load of electronic copies using Onedrive or GoogleDrive or whatever and let the beneficiary and their legal advisor pick though it at their leisure (in some ways the more documentation you provide at this point the better if you think that the beneficiary is going to pay a solicitor to read it all!).  If that is impractical then providing copies of the key documents with an invitation to view stuff like chequebook stubs that are harder to copy seems fair to me.

doodling said:

Hi,

Hammy21 said:

Sorry one more question.........the solicitor requested all the receipts and all bank statements, and even the checkbook, does anyone think this is reasonable, im happy for the beneficiary to see them, but i dont want to hand all this over incase a few big receipts 'disappear', is my offer for them to come to my house to view them under my supervision not enough? Section 25b of the Estates Act only requests that a PA give an inventory and account, of which I have given much more. I'm not worried about going to court as my accounts are accurate (I'm an accountant)

It all depends on what the generally accepted definition of an "inventory and account" is and I don't know what that is.  It could range from a simple running total of income and outgoings that might fit on one or two sheets of paper through to every single document from which that tally has been calculated.

How much paperwork is there?  Is it something you can scan (or even just photograph on your phone) or would that take a significant amount of time?  Ideally you'd just share a load of electronic copies using Onedrive or GoogleDrive or whatever and let the beneficiary and their legal advisor pick though it at their leisure (in some ways the more documentation you provide at this point the better if you think that the beneficiary is going to pay a solicitor to read it all!).  If that is impractical then providing copies of the key documents with an invitation to view stuff like chequebook stubs that are harder to copy seems fair to me.

It is a balance sheet listing all assets and liabilities, including estate expenses, along with a distribution account.

This is what I've found about additional information like bank statements, etc as it might be useful for others in a similar situation-  "Sometimes beneficiaries want to see more detailed documents like the Deceased’s bank statements or pension documentation.  Strictly speaking, a beneficiary has no entitlement as of right to such documentation – it is at your discretion whether to disclose any requested information"