Howdens Kitchen Salesman taking advantage of elderly father

DullGreyGuy

MeteredOut said:

Its extremely unlikely that the salesman was representing Howdens.

Either your father was confused and thought the sales person was from Howdens, because they were fitting Howdens fixtures, or the salesman intentionally misled your father to think he was from Howdens, using their names as a way to close the deal.

In fairness, if you go to the Howden's website there are several places where it states to "book a design visit" which if you click on opens a side window asking for your name, phone and email stating:


Book a FREE design appointment We want to get to know you and your home, so your design is exactly how you want it. Please supply your details, so our designers can organise a free home survey to kick start your plan.

Emphasis been added by me but certainly sounds like you'd be dealing with them whereas I suspect its somehow farmed out to the independent guys to pickup. 

Would be interested to know how the OP selected Howdens and the initial engagement 

Ergates

photome said:

But that shouldn’t happen as the public can’t or shouldn’t be able to go direct to Howdens so it should be that the joiner went to  Howdens ( or at least contacted them giving them approval to use his account) and got the salesman to go round and quote rather than the other way round

MeteredOut said:

Its extremely unlikely that the salesman was representing Howdens.

Either your father was confused and thought the sales person was from Howdens, because they were fitting Howdens fixtures, or the salesman intentionally misled your father to think he was from Howdens, using their names as a way to close the deal.

Howdens have showrooms, with staff who will help design your kitchen.  They will also come to your house to survey etc.   So they most definitely do have sales staff who definitely interact with consumers.

They just don't then *sell* direct to customers, they require you go via a tradesperson.

So, unless there was some chancer hanging around in the Howdens showroom, pretending to be a salesman , then it seems likely that the person who the OP's father believed to be a Howdens salesman was indeed a Howdens salesman .

The fact that the salesman worked on the fitting is what strongly suggests he's set the OP's father up with his mate.  Which, at the very least, is a conflict of interest.

lincroft1710

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

prettyandfluffy said:

Now I've received a copy of the invoice, the customer name is down as SL JOINERY AND DESIGNS, with my father's home address as the customer address. I'd still like Howdens to confirm all details they hold of the fitter though, as I can't find the supplier online – and get the incorrect cupboard doors rectified, which were supplied incorrectly by Howdens.

The contract is with the kitchen fitters and they are your first point of contact.  You need to check what was ordered, it may be that Howdens have supplied the correct item as per order but the wrong item was ordered.

Exactly ^^^^

Unless your father bought and paid for anything directly from Howdens (which is unlikely / unusual) then his claim is entirely against the fitter. The fitter in turn may have a claim against Howdens if they supplied either wrong or faulty goods.

As I said in my earlier post, Howdens may take a dim view of one of their employees behaving as you suggest. They might (or might not) take disciplinary action against them but that doesn't directly help your father.

Whilst the OP's father has no contract with Howdens, I'm not convinced they have no liability here.

The fitter was organised by a Howdens employee whilst they were acting in that capacity, and it certainly sounds like a dodgy deal.  

As well as the poor quality of the service, the payment of the money to the fitters mother sounds incredibly suspect.  Firstly there's the obvious tax-dodging.  Secondly it means that in the absence of an invoice (from the fitter) there is no evidence of any contract between the father and the fitter - a means of avoiding any come back.  

Even if Howdens aren't legally responsible for the behaviour of the fitter, they are responsible for the behaviour of their employee.  The one who set the OP's father up with a potentially criminal cowboy who just happened to be the employees mate.   They should take more than just a "dim view" of this.

The only liability Howdens have to the OP's father is if the behaviour of the salesman whilst acting as a representative of the company is not of the standard expected. They may allow salesmen to recommend fitters but if they find a fitter is doing poor work, they could suspend his account. How a fitter arranges payment for their services however is not Howdens' concern, they just supply the fitter with the goods, they are not the fitter's moral guardians.

Ergates

lincroft1710 said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

prettyandfluffy said:

Now I've received a copy of the invoice, the customer name is down as SL JOINERY AND DESIGNS, with my father's home address as the customer address. I'd still like Howdens to confirm all details they hold of the fitter though, as I can't find the supplier online – and get the incorrect cupboard doors rectified, which were supplied incorrectly by Howdens.

The contract is with the kitchen fitters and they are your first point of contact.  You need to check what was ordered, it may be that Howdens have supplied the correct item as per order but the wrong item was ordered.

Exactly ^^^^

Unless your father bought and paid for anything directly from Howdens (which is unlikely / unusual) then his claim is entirely against the fitter. The fitter in turn may have a claim against Howdens if they supplied either wrong or faulty goods.

As I said in my earlier post, Howdens may take a dim view of one of their employees behaving as you suggest. They might (or might not) take disciplinary action against them but that doesn't directly help your father.

Whilst the OP's father has no contract with Howdens, I'm not convinced they have no liability here.

The fitter was organised by a Howdens employee whilst they were acting in that capacity, and it certainly sounds like a dodgy deal.  

As well as the poor quality of the service, the payment of the money to the fitters mother sounds incredibly suspect.  Firstly there's the obvious tax-dodging.  Secondly it means that in the absence of an invoice (from the fitter) there is no evidence of any contract between the father and the fitter - a means of avoiding any come back.  

Even if Howdens aren't legally responsible for the behaviour of the fitter, they are responsible for the behaviour of their employee.  The one who set the OP's father up with a potentially criminal cowboy who just happened to be the employees mate.   They should take more than just a "dim view" of this.

The only liability Howdens have to the OP's father is if the behaviour of the salesman whilst acting as a representative of the company is not of the standard expected. They may allow salesmen to recommend fitters but if they find a fitter is doing poor work, they could suspend his account. How a fitter arranges payment for their services however is not Howdens' concern, they just supply the fitter with the goods.

From the details available from the OP, then the behviour of the salesman falls below *any* kind of expected standard.   Not to mention that it seems likely they're knowingly complicit in illegal tax evasion.  It seems very likely they were paid by their mate for helping with the fitting and I'm willing to bet a significant amount of money they didn't declare it.

Undervalued

photome said:

cmthephoenix said:

Are you sue the salesperson was from Howdens, it doesn't seem to make sense that a company that doesn't sell to the public would employ salespeople to visit a member of the public's home.

A different company that has a salesman and fitters, that supplies Howdens products to the public would make more sense, including the salesman 'helping out' the fitter.

Howdens do employ salespeople and they do visit peoples homes.

The only proviso is the buyer  needs to go through a trade so the trader needs to authorise use of their account

That is correct.

I was surprised when I found out how their system works a couple of years ago. Howdens have posh showrooms, produce high quality catalogues and will visit homes to provide design ideas and a detailed specification of all the parts that are needed. But, as you say, it all has to be ordered through a tradesman who has a Howdens account.

Maybe salesman is not quite the right word but it is a fine distinction.

lincroft1710

Ergates said:

lincroft1710 said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

prettyandfluffy said:

Now I've received a copy of the invoice, the customer name is down as SL JOINERY AND DESIGNS, with my father's home address as the customer address. I'd still like Howdens to confirm all details they hold of the fitter though, as I can't find the supplier online – and get the incorrect cupboard doors rectified, which were supplied incorrectly by Howdens.

The contract is with the kitchen fitters and they are your first point of contact.  You need to check what was ordered, it may be that Howdens have supplied the correct item as per order but the wrong item was ordered.

Exactly ^^^^

Unless your father bought and paid for anything directly from Howdens (which is unlikely / unusual) then his claim is entirely against the fitter. The fitter in turn may have a claim against Howdens if they supplied either wrong or faulty goods.

As I said in my earlier post, Howdens may take a dim view of one of their employees behaving as you suggest. They might (or might not) take disciplinary action against them but that doesn't directly help your father.

Whilst the OP's father has no contract with Howdens, I'm not convinced they have no liability here.

The fitter was organised by a Howdens employee whilst they were acting in that capacity, and it certainly sounds like a dodgy deal.  

As well as the poor quality of the service, the payment of the money to the fitters mother sounds incredibly suspect.  Firstly there's the obvious tax-dodging.  Secondly it means that in the absence of an invoice (from the fitter) there is no evidence of any contract between the father and the fitter - a means of avoiding any come back.  

Even if Howdens aren't legally responsible for the behaviour of the fitter, they are responsible for the behaviour of their employee.  The one who set the OP's father up with a potentially criminal cowboy who just happened to be the employees mate.   They should take more than just a "dim view" of this.

The only liability Howdens have to the OP's father is if the behaviour of the salesman whilst acting as a representative of the company is not of the standard expected. They may allow salesmen to recommend fitters but if they find a fitter is doing poor work, they could suspend his account. How a fitter arranges payment for their services however is not Howdens' concern, they just supply the fitter with the goods.

From the details available from the OP, then the behviour of the salesman falls below *any* kind of expected standard.   Not to mention that it seems likely they're knowingly complicit in illegal tax evasion.  It seems very likely they were paid by their mate for helping with the fitting and I'm willing to bet a significant amount of money they didn't declare it.

There is suspicion but no proof that the salesman was complicit in a possible tax evasion by the fitter and even if he was, it was while he was acting in a self employed capacity and not as an employee of Howdens. Whether or not Howdens would act on this is something only they can answer

born_again

photome said:

Did your father went to SL joinery for the quote ?

If he didn’t how did he get a quote?

Bear in mind it is your father that has the contract and not yourself.

These are the questions that need to be answered.

Who was contacted 1st & how installer was picked & who choose Howdens.

Paying installer mother, while sounds suspect is not illegal. 

Cryptix

Thank you all. Just to provide an update, the manager of the Howden's branch responsible for the sale has watched all the footage and evidence we sent, and also interviewed the salesman involved. The salesman admitted to helping to fit the kitchen but downplayed that he had only been there twice 'for a couple of hours each time' rather than the two full days he actually spent there.

The manager was appalled and said the fitting job is the worst he's ever seen and caused a huge amount of damage to the kitchen. Because of the actions of his salesman, he admitted it put them in a unique situation that they felt responsible to sort out. He asked what we would be looking for in terms of the outcome, and we said that we'd like the kitchen put right to expectations. He agreed that Howdens would indeed work out exactly all the new parts needed, and they've reached out to some trusted installers with our footage and to get quotes – that they will foot the bill for, including all replacement materials.

This seems entirely reasonable, and it appears the actions of their salesman has landed them with liability due to organising this directly with his 'fitter' friend on behalf of my father to profiteer.

Pollycat

Cryptix said:

Thank you all. Just to provide an update, the manager of the Howden's branch responsible for the sale has watched all the footage and evidence we sent, and also interviewed the salesman involved. The salesman admitted to helping to fit the kitchen but downplayed that he had only been there twice 'for a couple of hours each time' rather than the two full days he actually spent there.

The manager was appalled and said the fitting job is the worst he's ever seen and caused a huge amount of damage to the kitchen. Because of the actions of his salesman, he admitted it put them in a unique situation that they felt responsible to sort out. He asked what we would be looking for in terms of the outcome, and we said that we'd like the kitchen put right to expectations. He agreed that Howdens would indeed work out exactly all the new parts needed, and they've reached out to some trusted installers with our footage and to get quotes – that they will foot the bill for, including all replacement materials.

This seems entirely reasonable, and it appears the actions of their salesman has landed them with liability due to organising this directly with his 'fitter' friend on behalf of my father to profiteer.

And reflects very well on Howdon as a company.

Penguin_

Cryptix said:

Thank you all. Just to provide an update, the manager of the Howden's branch responsible for the sale has watched all the footage and evidence we sent, and also interviewed the salesman involved. The salesman admitted to helping to fit the kitchen but downplayed that he had only been there twice 'for a couple of hours each time' rather than the two full days he actually spent there.

The manager was appalled and said the fitting job is the worst he's ever seen and caused a huge amount of damage to the kitchen. Because of the actions of his salesman, he admitted it put them in a unique situation that they felt responsible to sort out. He asked what we would be looking for in terms of the outcome, and we said that we'd like the kitchen put right to expectations. He agreed that Howdens would indeed work out exactly all the new parts needed, and they've reached out to some trusted installers with our footage and to get quotes – that they will foot the bill for, including all replacement materials.

This seems entirely reasonable, and it appears the actions of their salesman has landed them with liability due to organising this directly with his 'fitter' friend on behalf of my father to profiteer.

Great work, cracking outcome. Fair play.