Newbuild Land Dispute Planning Enforcement

Section62

MeteredOut said:

Section62 said:

newbuildnightmare said:

I’m moving my shed and greenhouse into our garden within the domestic curtilage is there anything I should be aware of planning wise I’m also putting up a pergola I just wanted to run it past you guys as you have been a great help 

Check the property still has full permitted development rights.  These can be removed (in full or part) either as part of the planning consent or an Article 4 Direction.

You've probably got nothing to lose by asking the planning enforcement officer you are dealing with if it would be Ok to resite the shed and greenhouse within the original fenced garden - the worst they can do is refuse to answer, or tell you to consider making an application for a lawful development certificate if you want an official opinion.

Do you actually need planning permission to site a shed or greenhouse in your own garden, permitted development or otherwise?

Yes, in a residential setting they would be classed as outbuildings.  So potentially Class E permitted development 'within the curtilage of a house', provided all the other requirements are met. (which is what needs careful checking)

This is the fundamental issue for the OP - even if the council relents and accepts the swale area as the OP's private land rather than a public space, then it remains uncertain whether the swale area is within the curtilage.  As the planning drawings show a 6' fence around what is clearly the private garden area, and that fence also separates the 'garden' from the swale area, then the council have an arguable case that Class E permitted development doesn't apply to the swale area because it is outside the curtilage, and therefore planning consent would be required for pretty much anything the OP wanted to do with this piece of land (including replacing the fence on the highway boundary with a 1m one).

MeteredOut

Section62 said:

MeteredOut said:

Section62 said:

newbuildnightmare said:

I’m moving my shed and greenhouse into our garden within the domestic curtilage is there anything I should be aware of planning wise I’m also putting up a pergola I just wanted to run it past you guys as you have been a great help 

Check the property still has full permitted development rights.  These can be removed (in full or part) either as part of the planning consent or an Article 4 Direction.

You've probably got nothing to lose by asking the planning enforcement officer you are dealing with if it would be Ok to resite the shed and greenhouse within the original fenced garden - the worst they can do is refuse to answer, or tell you to consider making an application for a lawful development certificate if you want an official opinion.

Do you actually need planning permission to site a shed or greenhouse in your own garden, permitted development or otherwise?

Yes, in a residential setting they would be classed as outbuildings.  So potentially Class E permitted development 'within the curtilage of a house', provided all the other requirements are met. (which is what needs careful checking)

This is the fundamental issue for the OP - even if the council relents and accepts the swale area as the OP's private land rather than a public space, then it remains uncertain whether the swale area is within the curtilage.  As the planning drawings show a 6' fence around what is clearly the private garden area, and that fence also separates the 'garden' from the swale area, then the council have an arguable case that Class E permitted development doesn't apply to the swale area because it is outside the curtilage, and therefore planning consent would be required for pretty much anything the OP wanted to do with this piece of land (including replacing the fence on the highway boundary with a 1m one).

I was questioning the need for planning in the original garden, not in the swale, which was clearly not intended to be part of the curtilage of the garden, even if subsequent sales particulars did not make that clear.

But I get what you're saying - if PD rights were removed as part of the development, even siting the shed/greenhouse in the original garden may not strictly be allowed, but I'd be surprised if it would have been challenged, unless overly excessive in size. But, having those rights in the swale area will be even harder to claim.

newbuildnightmare

Yes only 4 months old new build 

Section62

MeteredOut said:

Section62 said:

MeteredOut said:

Section62 said:

newbuildnightmare said:

I’m moving my shed and greenhouse into our garden within the domestic curtilage is there anything I should be aware of planning wise I’m also putting up a pergola I just wanted to run it past you guys as you have been a great help 

Check the property still has full permitted development rights.  These can be removed (in full or part) either as part of the planning consent or an Article 4 Direction.

You've probably got nothing to lose by asking the planning enforcement officer you are dealing with if it would be Ok to resite the shed and greenhouse within the original fenced garden - the worst they can do is refuse to answer, or tell you to consider making an application for a lawful development certificate if you want an official opinion.

Do you actually need planning permission to site a shed or greenhouse in your own garden, permitted development or otherwise?

Yes, in a residential setting they would be classed as outbuildings.  So potentially Class E permitted development 'within the curtilage of a house', provided all the other requirements are met. (which is what needs careful checking)

This is the fundamental issue for the OP - even if the council relents and accepts the swale area as the OP's private land rather than a public space, then it remains uncertain whether the swale area is within the curtilage.  As the planning drawings show a 6' fence around what is clearly the private garden area, and that fence also separates the 'garden' from the swale area, then the council have an arguable case that Class E permitted development doesn't apply to the swale area because it is outside the curtilage, and therefore planning consent would be required for pretty much anything the OP wanted to do with this piece of land (including replacing the fence on the highway boundary with a 1m one).

I was questioning the need for planning in the original garden, not in the swale, which was clearly not intended to be part of the curtilage of the garden, even if subsequent sales particulars did not make that clear.

Yes, understood.  My point was that sheds/greenhouses are 'development' and therefore need planning consent, albeit that consent may be granted already by permitted development.

It is the difference (I mention fairly regularly) between "that's exempt" or "that doesn't need planning consent", and "that is permitted development".  For most people it doesn't matter, because what they want to do is permitted development.  But there are cases where something as minor as a small shed/greenhouse does need an application for consent.

MeteredOut said:

But I get what you're saying - if PD rights were removed as part of the development, even siting the shed/greenhouse in the original garden may not strictly be allowed, but I'd be surprised if it would have been challenged, unless overly excessive in size. But, having those rights in the swale area will be even harder to claim.

It is more black and white than "strictly".  If it doesn't have consent of some kind then it is unlawful development.  Whether the council decides to take enforcement action is a different issue.

In this case because planning enforcement are already involved it is probably more likely than usual that putting up a shed/greenhouse in the garden would be challenged if PD rights don't exist.  The planners are likely to look at what the OP proposes to make sure it isn't another breach.

I'm not suggesting the OP would, but it isn't uncommon for people facing enforcement action to look for another way to bend the rules - for example in this case moving the fence between the garden and the swale so the fence line is right on the edge of the swale, thus adding a strip of about 1m to the size of the garden.  So there's a risk the enforcement team will keep an occasional eye on what the OP does for some time to come.

If PD rights for the garden are Ok then the path of least resistance (and cost) would be to move the shed/greenhouse there.  But the key point though, is if the property doesn't have PD rights for the garden (I don't know if it does or doesn't) then the OP would have to apply for consent to relocate the shed and greenhouse to the garden, and in terms of strategy then it might make sense to make the application to retain the shed/greenhouse on the swale land because they are having to pay to make an application anyway.

newbuildnightmare

Section62 said:

MeteredOut said:

Section62 said:

newbuildnightmare said:

I’m moving my shed and greenhouse into our garden within the domestic curtilage is there anything I should be aware of planning wise I’m also putting up a pergola I just wanted to run it past you guys as you have been a great help 

Check the property still has full permitted development rights.  These can be removed (in full or part) either as part of the planning consent or an Article 4 Direction.

You've probably got nothing to lose by asking the planning enforcement officer you are dealing with if it would be Ok to resite the shed and greenhouse within the original fenced garden - the worst they can do is refuse to answer, or tell you to consider making an application for a lawful development certificate if you want an official opinion.

Do you actually need planning permission to site a shed or greenhouse in your own garden, permitted development or otherwise?

Yes, in a residential setting they would be classed as outbuildings.  So potentially Class E permitted development 'within the curtilage of a house', provided all the other requirements are met. (which is what needs careful checking)

This is the fundamental issue for the OP - even if the council relents and accepts the swale area as the OP's private land rather than a public space, then it remains uncertain whether the swale area is within the curtilage.  As the planning drawings show a 6' fence around what is clearly the private garden area, and that fence also separates the 'garden' from the swale area, then the council have an arguable case that Class E permitted development doesn't apply to the swale area because it is outside the curtilage, and therefore planning consent would be required for pretty much anything the OP wanted to do with this piece of land (including replacing the fence on the highway boundary with a 1m one).

Hi you mention there is a 6ft fence separating the garden from the swale proving it provides a clear boundary.  This is incorrect, the 6ft fence does not run the entire length of what you class as the boundary. The fence stops in live with my front elevation, meaning my front garden continues around the side of the property into the swale without a fence or boundary this is circa a 12ft space that is totally open from my front garden into the swale and this is exactly as it is presented on the planning document that the LPA is referring too.

Section62

newbuildnightmare said:

Section62 said:

Hi you mention there is a 6ft fence separating the garden from the swale proving it provides a clear boundary.  This is incorrect, the 6ft fence does not run the entire length of what you class as the boundary. The fence stops in live with my front elevation, meaning my front garden continues around the side of the property into the swale without a fence or boundary this is circa a 12ft space that is totally open from my front garden into the swale and this is exactly as it is presented on the planning document that the LPA is referring too.

What I mean is your 'garden' is enclosed by a 6' fence represented by the blue line on the landscaping plan.  Between the yellow arrows in the images below the fence marks a clear boundary between this 'garden' and the swale.  What I was saying is the planners might have an arguable case that your curtilage for the purposes of Class E development is only what is within the blue line.

This division is echoed by the different surface treatments (shown on the plan using different styles of fill).  From the key, the greener area within the blue-line (and to the right of the front door) is to be turfed (what you'd expect in a 'garden'), whereas the swale area (and to the left of the front door and along the strip from 'S1' to 'S2') has a browner less dense fill which indicates "wildflower grass seed" - which might be appropriate for a communal or conservation area.

The fact the front garden connects to the area to the side where the swale is, without a fence, doesn't make a difference.  The front 'gardens' are open plan, so you wouldn't expect there to be fences.  In fact the plan shows a continuous shared path (beige/yellow) running along the front of the properties parallel to the larger swale - it appears from the pictures this path hasn't been fully built?  Having this shared path at the front also suggests an intent for a more communal use of the land outside the blue-line boundary.

mills705

This sounds similar to what my partner had with her old new build property. She lived on a new build estate and her property was a semi detached which was at a T junction on the estate.

At the side of her property the company that built the house had put a wall on her property separating her garden and the street. However between the pavement and said wall was a strip of grass about 1.5/2m in width and was triangular in shape and then went down to a like very narrow strip of mud which had shrubs in. 

On the plans she owned the strip of grass but the wall meant she could not make use of it. She was the first owner of the house so definitely not an old issue. 

I think its part of these new build estates that people have land as part of the plans but not enclosed as part of there garden

MeteredOut

mills705 said:

This sounds similar to what my partner had with her old new build property. She lived on a new build estate and her property was a semi detached which was at a T junction on the estate.

At the side of her property the company that built the house had put a wall on her property separating her garden and the street. However between the pavement and said wall was a strip of grass about 1.5/2m in width and was triangular in shape and then went down to a like very narrow strip of mud which had shrubs in. 

On the plans she owned the strip of grass but the wall meant she could not make use of it. She was the first owner of the house so definitely not an old issue. 

I think its part of these new build estates that people have land as part of the plans but not enclosed as part of there garden

It's a convenient way for the developer (and the council) to push (at least some) responsibility of the land onto the owner, as the OP has found out.

Was she responsible for the upkeep of that grassy patch?

newbuildnightmare

The lpa say there can’t be any fences around the swale as they are not on the master plan drawing. The bird’s mouth fence that the builder put up is also a breach and not on the approved plan.  I have stressed that as l am the land owner I am liable for injuries risk of drowning in winter etc for the children in the street. I’ve offered to put up a 3ft fence with a gate but they say no.  The swale is not safe without a fence and as I say I’m liable what do I do?

newbuildnightmare

Can I force the builder to take the swale back using an AP1 as it is undeclared public land that they have passed onto me and not declared it to prevent them from having to maintain it.