Insolvent Estate and Renounce Ex

Savvy_Sue

Please, you are not an idiot, as you say grief does horrid things to you. The virtual hugs continue ... 

I don't know the answers, so I'll leave it to those who do, but agree that it can all wait, for now. 

silvercar

1. Yes
2. yes, it isn’t inter meddling if you provide the death certificate.
3. yes - complete, then copy, then post. Don’t forget that you need an uninvolved witness. It is effectively effective immediately as no one will administer the estate until it is registered and once it is registered you won’t be expected to do anything.
4. I don’t know that you need to do any more than write to the lender with a copy of the death certificate and say that no one is administering the estate and you believe it to be insolvent. I don’t see that they need the will and PA15s. They certainly don’t need a list of creditors. It’s not your job to put together a list of creditors and you certainly don’t want to imply the list is complete.
5. if the creditors write to you then you can reply that the estate is not being administered and is likely insolvent. You can include in the same letter that he owned the mortgage property with address XX. You can definitely say that you don’t wish to be contacted you again. Don’t direct further enquiries, that is up to them and their procedures.
6. I don’t see why you need to send PA15 to anyone other than HCMTS. These creditors and the lender won’t have a copy of the will, and nor should they, so they don’t need to see that you were an executor and are now relinquishing that role.

Give yourself time, all this can wait until you’re ready to deal with it.

if at any point any of these creditors try to force you to pay any of his debts, just remember to stand firm. His debts are not yours.

Arnold03

5- I should just inform those 3 that he has passed though ? 

So very thankful, hopefully tonight I will be able to sleep. We are so very very thankful. 

doodling

Hi,

Arnold03 said:

Thank you so much  you’ve brought me some clarity xx I’m forever grateful xx 

so plan is this 

1) do the tell them once.
2) inform his two bank accounts that he has passed (is it ok to provide death certificate - as if they close the account is that seen as inter meddling?) 
3) both of us fill in PA15 get it signed then post to (special delivery) HCMTS (is it effective immediately and do we get confirmation from them that is has been received?) we then take copies of the PA15? 
4) I write to mortgage lender with death certificate and copy of will and copy of both PA15s and list of the four known other creditors, and say that we have renounced and estate is likely insolvent is not being administered. 

5) I write to the other 3 creditors to say he has passed and that executors have renounced as estate is likely insolvent and is not being administered (should I send them death certs as well?) should I include on this letter that the property (insert address) that is mortgaged but as far as I’m aware it has not sold. (Am I able to request that they do not contact me further - and that any further enquires should be dealt with by HCMTS ( or is that wrong, or should I not do this?) 
6) I do not send pa15 to the other c3 creditors just the mortgage company. (If any of them request it do I send or just refer them to HCMTS) 

so sorry to be an idiot, grief plays horrid games with clarity. I just don’t want to do anything wrong.

Myself and my children are beyond grateful xx 

1. Yes.
2. It is fine to inform the banks.  It is fine to use money in the accounts (or indeed cash found in his property) for funeral expenses (best to get the bank to pay the funeral director direct if the account balance is more than the funeral cost).  Anything else (e.g. accepting the whole content of bank accounts if it is in excess of the funeral costs) is intermeddling.
3. No point in supplying PA15s to HMCTS, they won't know what to do with them until there is someone else wanting to Administer the estate.
4, 5 & 6. I would send the same letter to all the creditors stating the fact that he has passed, there was a will, you have renounced and you think the estate is insolvent.  You don't need to provide a death certificate although there is no detriment to you if you do.  I would note that you are happy to provide PA15s and the original will to whoever wants to Administer the estate but probably wouldn't include copies (if you do there is a risk that more than one creditor will apply at the same time which wouldn't be your problem but would be unhelpful).

I would then wait to be contacted by creditors.  If a creditor asks you for money (some might have difficulty getting their head round the fact you have renounced) then just send them the same letter again (perhaps with the text saying you have renounced in a larger bolder font!).  When a creditor says that they want to Administer then you send them the original will (as they need to distribute any money left over as per the will, although that may not be an issue in this case) and the original PA15s and your job is done, if it isn't the mortgage company then you might choose to give the mortgage company a warning before you do that as they are the most logical entity to do the Administration but it isn't your job to arbitrate between the creditors.

Arnold03

Is this sufficient … or too much… or not enough? (do I include my address?)


To creditor XXXX

i am writing to inform you that MR XXXX passed away on 22nd April. 

A will was left, both executors have renounced. As such no one is administering the estate.

It is believed the estate is insolvent.
i have enclosed death certificate for your records.

PA15s and a copy of will can be provided to whoever wants to apply to administer the estate.

Regards 

silvercar

Arnold03 said:

Is this sufficient … or too much… or not enough? (do I include my address?)


To creditor XXXX

i am writing to inform you that MR XXXX passed away on 22nd April. 

A will was left, both executors have renounced. As such no one is administering the estate.

It is believed the estate is insolvent.
i have enclosed death certificate for your records.

PA15s and a copy of will can be provided to whoever wants to apply to administer the estate.

Regards 

It is sufficient. Though I would be inclined to add that Mr X did own a mortgaged property, address YYY which hasn’t yet been sold. That gives them something to get their teeth into and hopefully leave you alone.

Arnold03

Thank you (again) @silvercar - just one more thing the PA15s - do we complete and send to HCMTS so that they know we have renounced? If we do - then a creditor asks for it, do we just give them a copy? 

I know someone said no need to send to HCMTS as there is nothing to attach them to?  Do I send them with a covering letter - or do I send the copies with covering letter.

sorry it’s just this pa15 point I’m not sure of, I know that as soon as we renounce we can “walk away” just getting them signed and them the forms sitting here waiting to give to someone (a creditor)  when they ask doesn’t feel right ?  Sorry it’s just this pa15 point I want to get right xx 

doodling

Hi,

You renounce by not intermeddling and by telling people that you have renounced, not by filling in a form.

PA15 forms are a piece of bureaucracy which tells the probate court that you have renounced.  HMCTS only need that bit of bureaucracy when they are considering whether to give Letters of Administration to someone else.

Please see  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pa15-give-up-probate-executor-rights point 6 where it explains that you don't give a PA15 directly to HMCTS, you give it to the person who is applying to Administer the estate.  You dont know who that is yet so you can't give the form to anyone.

silvercar

doodling said:

Hi,

You renounce by not intermeddling and by telling people that you have renounced, not by filling in a form.

PA15 forms are a piece of bureaucracy which tells the probate court that you have renounced.  HMCTS only need that bit of bureaucracy when they are considering whether to give Letters of Administration to someone else.

Please see  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pa15-give-up-probate-executor-rights point 6 where it explains that you don't give a PA15 directly to HMCTS, you give it to the person who is applying to Administer the estate.  You dont know who that is yet so you can't give the form to anyone.

I agree, though in OPs case I do think it is helpful to have them completed and ready to go, just for piece of mind.

Arnold03

Thank you both so much. I will have them ready to go and filed at home here ready to go when the time comes.

in your experience, will a creditor step up fairly promptly (the lender is biggest with around 250k and funding circle are  next with 115k ) to seek administration?