Right to Reject - Used car broken down within 24hrs of receiving.

RonnieDaddy

Hello, 

New to the forum, but I'm looking for some advice on a Car purchase that took place 4 days ago. 

Car is a Landrover, 47k miles 2020 plate, with full Service history.
Bought from a independent dealer (not Land Rover) 
PCP finance taken out through the dealers suggested finance company, approximately 40% deposit paid via debit card, the rest on a 3yr finance deal. 

Saturday - Test drove the Vehicle no apparent faults, agreed to the sale and drove away that evening back home (1 hour / 45miles) 

Sunday - Car taken out in the morning 1hour/40miles into the journey the car slows up and engine warning light with a "Reduced engine output" message appears on the dash. It then goes into full limp mode, near total loss of power on a busy road (Thankfully we were off the motorway by then), and the car struggles to get over 15mph. The dash then shows a red message showing "Service Required Exhaust Filter Full". There was then smoke from under the bonnet and smoke in the cabin. Manage to crawl to a car park and call dealer. We are advised (verbally over the phone by the dealer) that the vehicle shouldn't be driven in that condition. Car is left in the Car park over night.

Monday - Car is recovered back to the Dealership.

I expressed my displeasure on being sold a faulty car to the dealer when we broke down on the Sunday and that I wanted to discuss a refund. 

We have since had a follow up call with the dealer who has confirmed that the issue is a blocked DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). They have said they are going to replace the DPF sensor and clean the DPF and then take it on an extended test to make sure the issue has been resolved. 

I again stated my displeasure with the car and mentioned again that I would like a refund for faulty goods that are not fit for purpose. The response has been that they need to find out if there is a bigger problem. The distinction being that there is a difference between a mechanical fault and a maintenance issue. The implication being that the DPF problem is a maintenance issue down to, I assume in their eyes, wear and tear. An example the dealer gave of what this was similar to was the tyres...


According to Consumer Rights Act 2015:

Right to Reject
You can reject goods within 30 days of purchase if a fault is discovered that was present at the time of sale. Refunds must be processed without undue delay, typically within 14 days.
-Which to me seems pretty clear cut in this case, but maybe I'm wrong? My understanding is that any issues that manifest within 30 days are assumed to have been present at the time of purchase.


On the Company's terms on their website they also state the following:

Within the first 30 days, if the customer can show fault with a vehicle that was there at time of delivery, they will be entitled to either:

a: A free Repair
b: Replacement
c: or Full refund
- There is no distinction here or anywhere in the terms regarding mechanical faults or maintenance issues

If you exercise your legal right to reject the Vehicle and ask for a refund we will:

a. refund you the Price you paid for the Vehicle. However, please note we are permitted by law to reduce your refund to reflect any reduction in the value of the Vehicle; and

b. make any refund due to you as soon as possible and in any event within 14 days after the day on which you return the Vehicle to us.

Some Questions I have...

Is there really a distinction between Mechanical faults vs Maintenance faults? Is this even an argument? Surely a fault is a fault. My worry now is that this could be the start of some bigger under lying issues with the car. The car also went through a pre-delivery inspection with them, so I would have thought that this should have been checked and flagged if they had plugged in a diagnostics machine.

Having addressed this with the dealer  they have said they want to investigate further to find out if there are indeed bigger issues with the car. I plan to let them do this as if there is something bigger at fault it surely will help get this resolved in my favour. - However if it is only a clogged DPF they may use the maintenance argument as a reason not to refund.

I know that the refund will ultimately lie with the finance company, so should I be opening a complaint with them at the same time? The Finance company guidelines on their website state:

"If you’re experiencing any vehicle issues, contact your dealership who will work with you to find a solution. If you’re not happy with the outcome and need support from us please complete our complaints webform and we'll be in touch as soon as possible."

"You can reject goods within 30 days of purchase if a fault is discovered that was present at the time of sale. Refunds must be processed without undue delay, typically within 14 days"

"If you’re unable to resolve this with the dealership, we’re here to support you."


This could of course be an isolated unlucky turn of events with an otherwise great car, but as I've said I worry this could be the tip of an expensive iceberg.

We have taken out a 2 year warranty for protection against any issues that may arise through the dealer, however on our mileage (12k per year), which we clearly stated, and the age of the car this will expire within 12 - 18 months (max age of car 6 years or 60k miles), nothing was flagged before we signed, but thats another story. 

ButterCheese

A clogged DPF on such a new car sounds like a fault to me, rather than a maintenance issue.  i.e. if the DPF was just getting full, you'd already have an alert on the dash.  Sounds like a faulty sensor and/or perhaps a fault with the regen system so it's not been regenerating to clear itself.

Whatever the case, they may argue the toss that you cannot reject until they have attempted repair.  Lots of people immediately want to reject because they lose faith in the reliability of the car.  But if the DPF is cleaned and the associated problem fixed, that should be job done.

sheenas

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you have the right to reject within 14 days of purchase for any reason.

Exodi

sheenas said:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you have the right to reject within 14 days of purchase for any reason.

For goods bought online. (the idea is to give the consumer the opportunity to inspect the product, leveling the playing field with a consumer who bought the product in person).

The OP may have bought the car on the dealers website, but I strongly suspect they bought the car in person and performed a physical inspection, so this wouldn't apply.

RonnieDaddy said:

Is there really a distinction between Mechanical faults vs Maintenance faults? Is this even an argument? Surely a fault is a fault. 

Deep down you must know there is. You can appreciate there is a world of difference between a customer attempting to return a car for fault as the wind screen reservoir light has come on due to being out of fluid, or they've got a puncture and the tyre pressure light has come on. A world of difference from catastrophic engine failure.

I know you've lost faith in the car, but surely accepting the car back (after they perform a rigorous inspection), maybe with a small gesture of goodwill from them, is in your best interests? You can still go back to them if anything else goes wrong and presumably you've already spent money on insurance, road tax, warranty, etc.

RonnieDaddy

RonnieDaddy said:

Is there really a distinction between Mechanical faults vs Maintenance faults? Is this even an argument? Surely a fault is a fault. 

Deep down you must know there is. You can appreciate there is a world of difference between a customer attempting to return a car for fault as the wind screen reservoir light has come on due to being out of fluid, or they've got a puncture and the tyre pressure light has come on. A world of difference from catastrophic engine failure.

I know you've lost faith in the car, but surely accepting the car back (after they perform a rigorous inspection), maybe with a small gesture of goodwill from them, is in your best interests? You can still go back to them if anything else goes wrong and presumably you've already spent money on insurance, road tax, warranty, etc.

I absolutely do and you make a very valid point.

But I do think there is a distinction between a windscreen reservoir or tyres vs a fault that left the car virtually undriveable and had we been on a busier road could have been very dangerous. To your point of catastrophic engine failure, as I said, I worry that this could be a symptom of something larger considering the DPF should be good for far more than 47k miles and is directly attached to the engine...

It would undoubtably be easier to accept the car, but I have lost faith in it and don't want to be left stranded or in a dangerous situation if the same thing happens again without warning. I don't particularly like the idea of wondering every time I get in it, if I'm going to make it to my destination.

I'll be very interested to see what the dealer comes back with following further investigation.

daveyjp

Taking PCP finance on a five year old low mileage diesel Land Rover for a further three years knowing where Land Rovers sit in reliability tables is a very brave decision.

I'd be demanding a full refund asap and rethinking my car buying strategy.

RonnieDaddy

ButterCheese said:

A clogged DPF on such a new car sounds like a fault to me, rather than a maintenance issue.  i.e. if the DPF was just getting full, you'd already have an alert on the dash.  Sounds like a faulty sensor and/or perhaps a fault with the regen system so it's not been regenerating to clear itself.

Whatever the case, they may argue the toss that you cannot reject until they have attempted repair.  Lots of people immediately want to reject because they lose faith in the reliability of the car.  But if the DPF is cleaned and the associated problem fixed, that should be job done.

And I believe that if the problem reoccurs within 6 months I'm then entitled to a full refund come what may? (but with a fair deduction reflecting the usage we have had from it)

Does this also apply if there is a different issue that arises does anyone know? I want to be clear about what we can do if we do keep the car and there are any further issues.

Mildly_Miffed

RonnieDaddy said:

But I do think there is a distinction between a windscreen reservoir or tyres vs a fault that left the car virtually undriveable and had we been on a busier road could have been very dangerous. To your point of catastrophic engine failure, as I said, I worry that this could be a symptom of something larger considering the DPF should be good for far more than 47k miles and is directly attached to the engine...

The DPF is just a short-term holding tank. It collects harmful soot from the engine and - when the conditions are right - burns it harmlessly.

In the right use, that'll happen totally transparently to the driver.

The only time there's a problem is if the use hasn't got the exhaust up to temperature sufficiently to start that regeneration process.

So the issue here is about the previous driver's use of the car, no more than that.

All the car needs is to be connected to a diagnostic computer, and be told to do that regeneration manually. It'll sit there for a while, engine running in a way designed to get the exhaust hot, then do what it should do in the normal pattern of use. Once that's done, all will be good.

There is no lasting issue here, unless your use is also incompatible with a DPF - in which case, you're buying the wrong car for you. By now, a decade and a bit after DPFs were introduced, we should all have got our heads around that.
Low use = bad for DPFs = don't buy a diesel.

RonnieDaddy

I appreciate the clarity on this. You'll have to excuse my ignorance about the DPF, previous diesel's have both been pre-DPF so I'm not that up to speed on them. However after plenty of trawling I know that our driving style will be fine for a modern diesel. 

paul_c123

If you want a Land Rover you'll need to accept issues such as this, because they all break down and especially the DPF is a known weak issue with them (but there's lots of other ways they can break down too). You could be 100% in the right, reject it, get the money back, find another car and go through it all again. And again, many times.

If it just needs a DPF cleaned, and no further faults, I'd say give them a chance to do it.

They have a right to inspect/diagnose the car before giving a refund/rejection because there's people who get buyer's remorse, and try it on. Also they can decline to reject the car if they can prove the fault wasn't present when you bought the car, or its been modified.

Goudy

There's nothing unusual about your cars behaviour.
Most Land Rovers of this year/type suffer this problem, in fact there have been class actions over it around the world.

There appears to be an inherent fault with the DPF arrangement of these engines where the system is unable to perform effective regenerations of the DPF.

Reading between the lines the engine produces lots of soot, the DPF isn't massive so tends to need to perform lots of regular regens, sometimes as often as every 70 miles and it looks like it's positioning doesn't allow for enough heat to perform reliable regenerations.

You might be able to get the selling garage to pay to have it cleaned and the system reset by a specialist  (I'd also want the engine oil and oil filter changed as well), but odds on the problem will return again sooner rather than later.

I think you are in for a fight to reject the car. I'm sure the selling garage will want to attempt to "fix" it and get you out of their hair.
Your warranty will be useless for future DPF issues as well.

There tend to be two types of modern Land Rover owners.
Those that buy them, realise just how bad they are and move them on as quickly as they can.
Or those with deep pockets that accept it's part of the ownership experience to own and drive one.