Having to go to financial ombudsman now that I've been called a liar. What to submit?

B0bbyEwing

beckstar1975 said:

Where have you used both cards? DH has had his card details cloned twice, once from a cash machine at a tube station and once at our local petrol station (he was one of several -it's a big brand one too). 

Just to give you an example off places where this can occur. 

Physical card - I haven't, in the sense that I haven't taken the physical card out of the house & used it somewhere. I pay contactless for everything (I know I know, some will want to burn me for that). I can't remember the last time I took a physical card out of the house. Years ago.

As for contactless - I use Chase for absolutely everything because of the cashback (although I believe that's changing now?).

Where Amex has been used is when I didn't make sure there was enough on my Chase to cover the Google One sub - so the backup of Amex kicked in.
Also when making an online purchase - on occasion I'll have used my Amex.

And that's about it that I can remember to be honest.

A while ago I noticed activity that wasn't me - I reported it to Amex, they issued a new card & despite some members here insisting a family member had used my card, Amex saw sense & ruled in my favour.

Problem was, it wasn't long before it happened again, on the new card, which is the instance this thread is about, because Amex this time have conducted a Mickey Mouse investigation & decided that I made the transaction.

I've since had that card replaced (so I'm now on to my 3rd card) and no fraudulent activity on the latest card ... yet.

I'd like to say at which point I turned on 2FA to the account but I'd be guessing. I thought it was on originally but maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, I can't be 100%. 

DullGreyGuy

B0bbyEwing said:

born_again said:

Who is the retailer?

Could it be a follow subscription from something you have purchased? 
Fact time is while you are asleep, does not really make any difference, as could just be the timing of system processing, rather than actual time it was made.

Just curious why this is important?
I've nothing 'to hide' but I just found it unusual to ask because I don't understand its relevance. As though if I say company 1 then the whole thing should be treated differently vs if I say company 2?

But no, it couldn't be. As I said - I'd never heard of this company before ever in my life and like I said I'm also fairly anti-subscription. I had Google One appear on my Amex card as a subscription once or twice but that's about it.

And also, when I say nobody accessed my card, my account, my details or any of that then that's exactly what I mean (if we're starting to push the "did a family member...." narrative). If I come across as short with that one then it's because I've previously dealt with members (on here) who just wouldn't listen when I said that (not saying you're one of them, I'm not delving back through my posts to see) & instead kept insisting that a family member must have taken my card. Funny enough, that was also with Amex IIRC which was prior to this incident & at that time Amex ruled in my favour - that my account/card (whichever one may prefer to use) was fraudulently used. They issued me a new card but obviously that didn't work out too well.

Because there are some infamous subscription companies that are pushed by some well know retailers at the end of their purchase process, normally with a promise of "cash back" on the purchase you just made. If it's one of them then it may look like user errors (we get many threads on here about them) as most dont read what they are agreeing to which is actually a subscription for "discounts" or equivalent. If however if was "adult services" then it smells more like fraud.  Mail order physical products are also unusual for fraud

In normal parlance "they accessed my account" would mean that someone has compromised your log in details and managed either to get telephone staff to talk about your account to them or, more likely, have logged in online/in-app as you. This is different to a simple unauthorised transaction. If you've complained that someone has accessed your account then the security team will have simply checked when your account has been accessed by anyone and looking for IP address or other details that dont match your regular access details. When nothing is found they will not uphold the complaint because there is no evidence of someone else getting in. 

born_again

B0bbyEwing said:

born_again said:

Who is the retailer?

Could it be a follow subscription from something you have purchased? 
Fact time is while you are asleep, does not really make any difference, as could just be the timing of system processing, rather than actual time it was made.

Just curious why this is important?
I've nothing 'to hide' but I just found it unusual to ask because I don't understand its relevance. As though if I say company 1 then the whole thing should be treated differently vs if I say company 2?

But no, it couldn't be. As I said - I'd never heard of this company before ever in my life and like I said I'm also fairly anti-subscription. I had Google One appear on my Amex card as a subscription once or twice but that's about it.

And also, when I say nobody accessed my card, my account, my details or any of that then that's exactly what I mean (if we're starting to push the "did a family member...." narrative). If I come across as short with that one then it's because I've previously dealt with members (on here) who just wouldn't listen when I said that (not saying you're one of them, I'm not delving back through my posts to see) & instead kept insisting that a family member must have taken my card. Funny enough, that was also with Amex IIRC which was prior to this incident & at that time Amex ruled in my favour - that my account/card (whichever one may prefer to use) was fraudulently used. They issued me a new card but obviously that didn't work out too well.

Because I may know & delt with them before.

As @DullGreyGuy points out there are many well known companies out there & they have subscriptions, that many people fail to notice.

Clearly Amex are happy that there is a link to you. Could go back to not noticing the 1st transactions & the details between that & the other are the same.

B0bbyEwing

born_again said:

B0bbyEwing said:

born_again said:

Who is the retailer?

Could it be a follow subscription from something you have purchased? 
Fact time is while you are asleep, does not really make any difference, as could just be the timing of system processing, rather than actual time it was made.

Just curious why this is important?
I've nothing 'to hide' but I just found it unusual to ask because I don't understand its relevance. As though if I say company 1 then the whole thing should be treated differently vs if I say company 2?

But no, it couldn't be. As I said - I'd never heard of this company before ever in my life and like I said I'm also fairly anti-subscription. I had Google One appear on my Amex card as a subscription once or twice but that's about it.

And also, when I say nobody accessed my card, my account, my details or any of that then that's exactly what I mean (if we're starting to push the "did a family member...." narrative). If I come across as short with that one then it's because I've previously dealt with members (on here) who just wouldn't listen when I said that (not saying you're one of them, I'm not delving back through my posts to see) & instead kept insisting that a family member must have taken my card. Funny enough, that was also with Amex IIRC which was prior to this incident & at that time Amex ruled in my favour - that my account/card (whichever one may prefer to use) was fraudulently used. They issued me a new card but obviously that didn't work out too well.

Because I may know & delt with them before.

As @DullGreyGuy points out there are many well known companies out there & they have subscriptions, that many people fail to notice.

Clearly Amex are happy that there is a link to you. Could go back to not noticing the 1st transactions & the details between that & the other are the same.

Ah fair enough then & thanks for not taking my question the wrong way as well. 

It was Canva.

Had never even heard of the company until I saw it on my statement. 

For whatever it's worth the previous time there was fraudulent activity that I just mentioned earlier - that was a sub to CHATGPT. Again that was another company I'd never heard of before until I saw it on my statement but as I mentioned earlier Amex refunded me for that one. 

B0bbyEwing

Although having said that - surely any roll on sub would be a non factor because I said I tend to avoid subs. Google One sub aside.

Ill go back through my statements tonight to see if maybe I had a subscription to something else around this time active on my Amex but I'm 99% sure I didn't. 

beckstar1975

If you use your Amex card online it's always possible that a website you used legitimately may not have been what it seemed and may have collected and then used your card details - so that is likely how they acquired them. 

MattMattMattUK

Are your card details stored in your Google account and could that have been compromised? Have a look through this from Google and check your devices and sessions. Make sure you have 2FA on your Google account as well. 

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3067630?

eskbanker

Have Amex given any indication of specifically what makes them believe that you authorised the transaction?

Worth bearing in mind that the onus is actually on them to prove that you did authorise it rather than on you to prove that you didn't, and even use of PINs, etc, isn't considered definitive proof:

If the unauthorised payment was made on a credit card, or from an overdrawn account, your bank can only refuse a refund if:

• You, or someone acting on your behalf, authorised the payment, or
• The person who used your payment card (including virtual cards) had it with your consent. 

The use of your password, card or PIN might not on their own be proof that you authorised a payment. 

https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/fraudulent-payments

B0bbyEwing

eskbanker said:

Have Amex given any indication of specifically what makes them believe that you authorised the transaction?

Worth bearing in mind that the onus is actually on them to prove that you did authorise it rather than on you to prove that you didn't, and even use of PINs, etc, isn't considered definitive proof:

If the unauthorised payment was made on a credit card, or from an overdrawn account, your bank can only refuse a refund if:

• You, or someone acting on your behalf, authorised the payment, or
• The person who used your payment card (including virtual cards) had it with your consent. 

The use of your password, card or PIN might not on their own be proof that you authorised a payment. 

https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/fraudulent-payments

No they've given no reason other than the reason parents give kids when a kid asks why ............ "because".

I've just contacted Amex now to ask about the specific date and time that the transactions were made. I can see the date that they appear on my online statement but that isn't necessarily when the transaction was made - so it's this date and time I'm looking for. I didn't think they'd be able to give me this info via live chat but they did.

Frustratingly this information hasn't helped me any. For the November date, normally speaking my clock card would've saved me as the payment was during work time. On the date in question I took the day off unpaid. For the December one I was extremely unwell on the day in question & bed ridden for this date & the next 3-4 days but obviously I have no proof of this & because I was at home it could be and would be said that I could've made the payment. I just know I didn't because even just being awake that day was horrible, I could barely move.

DullGreyGuy

So based on what it is the sign up would have happened 30-32 days before the actual payment was taken as there is always a 30 day free trial with the condition it auto renews to a paid subscription; you therefore shouldn't be thinking what was happening around the time of the payment but a month beforehand 

Are you an Apple or Android user? Have you checked your subscriptions on your accounts? I dont know about Android but with Apple you can setup a "family" and they can put charges to the cards stored by the head of the family. If you have such a setup check with them. 

We have had other posters who haven't realised the date difference between authorisation and payment and when pointed out remembered they've allowed grandkids to use iPads etc and found the subscriptions