Are removals services covered by Consumer Rights Act 2015?

Alderbank

It's a bit of a mess isn't it!.

My sympathies are with your piano.
With respect, moving even a large heavy sofa is not the same as moving a piano. I've moved house a couple of times and just hired a van and bribed a few friends to help with beds, sofas, etc. but I have always paid  professionals to move my piano (and my Hammond B3).

Pianos don't like to be moved, they aren't keen on being stored anywhere without central heating and they really hate being bounced around over potholes in the back of a van. The contractor is quite right in trying to minimise these.

I assume you have your piano tuner lined up ready to assess your piano as soon as it is in its new home?
With your first option (1), the subcontractor arranges a sub-contractor to complete the move, his insurance should cover the entire operation but you need to ensure that his insurer is happy with the additional contractor being brought in.
With your second option (2) it could be very difficult to establish blame if there is anything wrong with the action after the final move. Each shifter will blame the other.

lincroft1710

With regard to "commencing legal action", it could easily take 6 months before you get a court date and the remover could counter sue for storage fees for the period up to the hearing.


Also as the contract to move the piano is between your relative and the mover, it is your relative who has to initiate proceedings (they can of course give permission for you to act on their behalf).

Tisiphone

Alderbank said:

It's a bit of a mess isn't it!.

My sympathies are with your piano.
With respect, moving even a large heavy sofa is not the same as moving a piano. I've moved house a couple of times and just hired a van and bribed a few friends to help with beds, sofas, etc. but I have always paid  professionals to move my piano (and my Hammond B3).

Pianos don't like to be moved, they aren't keen on being stored anywhere without central heating and they really hate being bounced around over potholes in the back of a van. The contractor is quite right in trying to minimise these.

I assume you have your piano tuner lined up ready to assess your piano as soon as it is in its new home?
With your first option (1), the subcontractor arranges a sub-contractor to complete the move, his insurance should cover the entire operation but you need to ensure that his insurer is happy with the additional contractor being brought in.
With your second option (2) it could be very difficult to establish blame if there is anything wrong with the action after the final move. Each shifter will blame the other.

WILL NOBODY THINK OF THE PIANO!!!!

Thanks, yes it's a total mess. Hard to believe it may be but this is a professional piano remover we're dealing with! Chosen for the very reasons you mention. So it came as a surprise when he said if he'd seen a picture of my flat he'd have recommended a specialist in what he calls stairwork!!

I hadn't thought about that issue with option 2 so thanks for that. 

You assume right about the piano tuner!

Tisiphone

lincroft1710 said:

With regard to "commencing legal action", it could easily take 6 months before you get a court date and the remover could counter sue for storage fees for the period up to the hearing.


Also as the contract to move the piano is between your relative and the mover, it is your relative who has to initiate proceedings (they can of course give permission for you to act on their behalf).

Thanks, yes I'm talking about "I" and "we" because R wants me to deal with it but we're aware he has to initiate proceedings.

I wonder how successful he'd be in counter suing for the storage.  The issue is that he put the piano in storage without asking us and essentially, having done so, refused to deal with us for two weeks while he was on holiday.  He then announced that we were liable for the fee so we're left with the choice of paying to get it out of storage and brought here and then trying to claim the costs back from him, or leaving it there while we wait for a court date and waiting to see who's liable for the cost.

lincroft1710

I personally wouldn't be happy leaving a piano in an unchosen place of storage for any length of time.


I would want to be playing my piano, so as much as it may grate I would pay to get it out of storage, delivered to my home and then try to recoup my costs either by negotiation or legal action

born_again

Could have been worse, could have just left it outside house. 🤷‍♀️

Tisiphone

born_again said:

Could have been worse, could have just left it outside house. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, or set fire to it, or driven it over a cliff....I've been very lucky really!

Okell

lincroft1710 said:

I personally wouldn't be happy leaving a piano in an unchosen place of storage for any length of time.


I would want to be playing my piano, so as much as it may grate I would pay to get it out of storage, delivered to my home and then try to recoup my costs either by negotiation or legal action

I think this is the only viable option  -  ie pay to get it out of storage and delivered to the OP's flat and then sue after safe delivery*

@Tisiphone -  You haven't said who the specialist removal firm is.  It might help if we could see their T&Cs and what they ask for when giving a quote.  (Is it these people?   Kent Piano Movers - Professional Piano Movers in Kent & Sussex.  I just googled piano movers in Kent)

Is it possible to post photos of the approach and entrance to your flat?  The boss of the removal firm seems adamant that it would be unsafe/dangerous/impossible to get inside your flat yet you and your relative are equally adamant that it should be straightforward.  It might help to visualise what the problem is - if there is a problem.

Do you have an alternative firm of movers in mind?  If so, have they given an opinion on access to your flat?

Obviously you are left to deal with this mess not having been involved in the original conversations.  Are you confident your relative didn't misunderstand any of those conversations?  (Sorry - have to ask)


* I'm never sure whether in this sort of situation the person making the payment "under protest" needs to inform the payee that it is under protest, or whether they can just pay up and subsequently sue the payee.  I can see pros and cons for both approaches...

Okell

Tisiphone said:

... His latest email with my comments :

To clarify, the terms of our contract were based on the delivery of the piano from Maidenhead to a London address with what was described as easy access. Unfortunately, upon arrival, it became clear that the access was unsafe for both our team and your instrument, rendering the agreed delivery unfeasible, per our terms and conditions, linked above the quote form completed by .... His T&Cs allow for an increase in charges when "any entrance is not suitable for the clear passage of goods". It's hard for him to argue that. His guys couldn't do it, other piano removers haven't seen a problem.

The quote form clearly requests that photos be provided and measurements taken to assess access accurately. In this case, the only photo submitted was of the collection address. No photo or description was provided for the delivery location, which is where the access issue arose. His form gives an email address for attachments "if you have any photos". He gave the quote after receiving the form + 2 phone calls with R and didn't ask for any. He also didn't reply when R asked if he needed further information 10 days before delivery.  R did describe access to my flat, accurately if briefly.

This site cannot reasonably be described as “easy access,” even by someone outside the profession. Neither R nor I foresaw any difficulty getting the piano into the flat, even the night before delivery when I had a very heavy 7 foot sofa and a large dresser delivered. The issue was the weight of the piano, not dimensions and we had no idea they planned to use ramps rather than lift it. The email he's referring to was sent after the quote was made and accepted and they'd spoken at length on the phone.

Additionally,... confirmed during a phone call that he had never seen the delivery address in person. Surely this would have been the moment to have asked for photos? (He could also, having not asked for photos,  have googled it and would have seen a photo of my building with my entrance clearly visible).

 In accordance with our policy, we request further detail whenever access information is omitted or indicates any additional access considerations. This was not the case with the correspondence with ... He didn't request it and R didn't know that he had omitted anything.....he asked and got no reply!!

The piano was placed into secure short-term storage when delivery was deemed unsafe. Both you and ...were informed of this in our phone call on 7th April, and this is further supported by ...'s email enquiring about storage charges. Untrue. He told neither of us what he was going to do with the piano on the 7th, it stayed in the van and his team left. When we spoke, he said he would come up with a solution and get back to us. Later that evening he told us he'd put it into storage and would come up with a plan when he got back from holiday on the 18th (we didn't hear from him till the 21st,).  R's email simply asked what about charges, meaning who pays.

As discussed, the initial storage facility was temporary due to the owner vacating the premises. The piano has since been moved to... Again, this was done with no consultation.

We have absorbed the cost of this secondary relocation as a gesture of goodwill. However, the cost for the initial storage — as agreed with ... — remains outstanding and must now be settled. R has never agreed anything about storage.

Further to this, we are satisfied that every action we have taken has been within the law, and we have gone above and beyond to accommodate the situation — including relocating on an alternative collection date based on your timelines, He offered to deliver to a ground floor address of my choice (I have none available) on less than required notice and at our cost

securing 2 x additional storage, absorbing 2 x relocation costs, and providing clear recommendations for next steps. The storage was done on his own whim, the relocations were, back from my flat when they couldn't deliver and out of his chosen storage facility because it closed.

If the piano is not collected from... by Monday 2nd June, we will deem you not to wish to relocate and will dispose of the instrument. I don't believe he has the right to do this...

All the comments you make to the points he raises are valid.

In particular, if photos of the access are a standard requirement of getting a quote, why did they accept the job without those photos in the first place?  His argument makes no sense.

And no - he can't just "dispose" of the piano, but he can give you notice that if you do not collect it by a specific date then he will sell it.  If it comes to that he must sell it "by the best method of sale reasonably available in the circumstances" so he would need to get a reasonable price for it.  He then has to pay over to you the procceds of that sale less any costs of sale he has incurred.  Whether he could also deduct storage charges - I don't know.

As in my earlier post this evening, I think your priority ought to be to get the piano out of storage and delivered to your flat ASAP and then you can consider suing them

Tisiphone

Okell said:

@Tisiphone -  You haven't said who the specialist removal firm is.  It might help if we could see their T&Cs and what they ask for when giving a quote.  (Is it these people?   Kent Piano Movers - Professional Piano Movers in Kent & Sussex.  I just googled piano movers in Kent)

No, not them. T&Cs here and quote form here

Having trouble posting a picture;  the issue is that the door is at a right angle to the steps and there isn't space to turn it without lifting and they weren't able to do that. I should mention, it's an Eavestaff mini piano which only measures cm 100h x 145w x 50d although it doesn't weigh much less than a standard upright.

I've now spoken to 3 local piano removers and none of them view this as a difficult job. One of them offered to write us a statement to that effect if we have to go to court. They've all said that they would lift it down the steps and use a trolley

You asked if I was confident my relative hadn't misunderstood any of their conversations. I am and he is backed up by the emails between them.

Okell said:
And no - he can't just "dispose" of the piano, but he can give you notice that if you do not collect it by a specific date then he will sell it.  If it comes to that he must sell it "by the best method of sale reasonably available in the circumstances" so he would need to get a reasonable price for it.  He then has to pay over to you the procceds of that sale less any costs of sale he has incurred.  Whether he could also deduct storage charges - I don't know.

That's very helpful.

I agree the sensible move is to get the piano and take action afterwards but I can't afford to and my relative is, understandably, not willing. He bought the piano very cheaply, though this model is sometimes sold for much more (and sometimes given away; it's not a wonderful instrument but it's quite a cool design and will fit where a standard upright won't).