Deliberately vague

TheJP

busybee100 said:

TheJP said:

busybee100 said:

Sorry should say the previous neighbours son put the panels in and they are along the boundary.

Is the neighbours son, Mr A's son? Did he put in the fence panels along the boundary that is in dispute?

If he did then they own the fence and can take them down if they wish, a boundary does not have to have a separation to class it/satisfy it as a boundary unless something is specifically outlined in the deeds of both properties.

Hi JP

No not Mr. A's son. The previous owner of Mr A's house, her son. The son who apologised for selling to Mr A.

And I'm not contesting the panels are Mr As. I just dont want Mr A taking a strip of land off my property in the guise of replacing a fence.

Ok so im a little confused. The fence panels that are on your boundary side added by the previous owners of mr A's property (front or rear?) are the ones that Mr A is taking down?

The front fence which has been taken down by Mr A is both his and yours along a shared joining boundary line? 

A picture of satellite image and notes of which fence lines you are talking about would prove useful for us to better understand.

busybee100

sheenas said:

Are you are suggesting mr a might remove the fence and then put a new fence further onto your land? I have seen this done and the council who owned the adjoining land made them move in 2cm further back, so it was in the correct place. 

Yes thats what he wanted to do in our front garden and suggested it for the rear fence as it would be "easier". Well yes Mr. A it would given the ground is alteady clear and posts dug in. 

I can see a council being able to make someone move a fence but am I going to be able to if it costs xxxxx thousands?

I think in his head he is offering to replace the old wooden fence boundary fence with a nice new composite fence only its going to cost more than he thought so he would also like us to contribute towards the expense. 

WIAWSNB

busybee100 said:

Firstly thank you for your long and detailed reply, replying to you has really helped me sort my thoughts.

Yes the title deeds say the boundary is Mr As and both fences were bought by the previous owner of our house and stand on our land other than where the rear garden fence slopes towards the 'patio' panels and fixes to Mr As side of the post holding up the panels. 

To clarify - no-one 'owns' the 'boundary'. The 'boundary' is an invisible line that divides your two properties, and its location is usually established when the properties are built. Yes, they can 'move' over time, if folk keep replacing fences without due care, and if no record is kept of its original position. 

With two fully-detached houses, for example, it can be hard to determine afterwards where the boundary should be, as deeds maps are very crude, low resolution, and of a tiny scale. It then comes down to things like whether there any fixed identifiable landmarks - stone gate pillars, a garage built tight against the boundary, and stuff like that. Also, historical records - old Google Earth views, photos taken by previous owners, the recollections of occupants and neighbours... Often a 'mare! 

However, in your case, it seems as tho' you can evidence, with far more reliability than the new neighbour, MrOle, sorry, MrA, may try, what the situation is in your back gardens; the previous owner of your property paid for, and installed, a new fence, and positioned it on their (now, your) side of the boundary line. I expect, then, that the previous (dilaptated?) fence was just on the neighbour's side of the boundary (in both cases, the backs of the posts can 'touch' the boundary line, as best as it's known). That is all fine - you can evidence this by the account of your previous owner, the son of the previous neighbour, and another neighbour; if required, they could all produce a 'statement of truth' to this effect. And, very possibly, you can evidence it further by what is visible on the ground? That is all good. I would then let MrA be the one who'd need to prove the fence is now 'his' - he'd fail.

Yes, moving a fence like what your previous owner did is typically what can cause boundaries to 'move', but that is only if records are not kept of what occurred, and if folk do such things without making it clear what has happened - and making it clear that the true boundary remains in its correct position. Phew! So, I'd suggest that your rear garden fence is fine, and confirmed by your solicitor-fired warning to not touch.
He had already stripped the uprights off two sections of our picket fence, I suspect in an effort to weaken them, before we spoke to our solicitor and there has been no more damage since. His letter to our solicitor suggested we pay half towards his new composite fence that he would replace the wooden fence with. And that as the wooden fence had been there many years and it was his boundary to maintain he could now legally claim the fence as the boundary. No, he cannot claim the boundary has changed - it hasn't. And, no, you do not need to pay halfs towards anything (unless you do decide to make it a 'party' boundary. But why should you?!) You can evidence - using various witnesses - that the picket fence was placed there by the owner of your house, and on their side of the 'known' boundary line. That picket fence is therefore yours, 100%. The fact that he stopped touching it after your letter suggest this message got through. Is your neighbour also using a solicitor to communicate, or just writing his own letters?

Can we sue him for a replacement? Our solicitor told us it would likely cost 10s of thousands and there was no guarantee we would even get costs back. Could you sue him? Yes. Would you ultimately win? Most likely, yes. Would it be worth it? Most likely no. Why not? Becuase when you are dealing with a dysfunctional character, 'reason' will not prevail. Part of the process will likely involve expendature on determining boundaries, and lot's of to-and-fro communications with your solicitor, each one allowing them to pocket £100's for the privilege. You can do a lot of this work yourself - eg, writing a 'cease and desist' letter, outlining that he must not touch your fence again. And you ensure it's delivered in a recordable method.

Now that he's been informed - in a recordable way - to not touch your fence, then you would be on safer ground in taking action should he damage it more, but it's always a risk if you don't have Legal Protection (do you?)

The front garden has been left as I dont know what to do given the gap Mr A has left. The solicitor said if we go to court he thinks a judge would say it was a party wall and it would be ok for us to rebuild it. As it stands there is a trench about 40cm deep where about 20cm deep is the rough edge of our land.

I don't fully understand what has happened here, but if you are confident that you can determine where the 'true' boundary line lies - ie, presumably behind where your picket fence posts now sit - then you can ,
Our solicitor suggested we apply for a determined boundaries resolution. We have had the initial survey (£400+vat) and drawings done and a site visit has been arranged for next week. I am in two minds about going through with the site visit as it will be £1200+vat and I dont even know if it will help unless we go for a determined boundary application which will be more again. Personally (unless you have money to burn), I wouldn't fork out such sums when you have good witnesses to confirm what has happened - ie, new fences built on your side of the boundary line by the previous owner of your house. Pass the buck on to MrA to take action if he wants to - and he almost certainly won't. Have a chat with your witnesses, and ask if they'd be happy to write 'statements of truth' regarding what happend with the fences should it be required. And then I'd just repair the picket fence - replace the top rail - coupled with a C&D letter to MrA. The second he touches that fence, you get the police involved again - it will be TwithCPD.

Although I do feel he has taken a particular disliking to me, he tries to intimidate anyone who doesn't adhere to what he believes is correct. If anyone tries to explain he conflates and misunderstands then shouts at them until they walk away. His letters take the same form, jumbled, nasty, contradictory and lies. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to print them out and frame them for everyone to read. I need to remember he's deliberately trying to goad me and keep gathering evidence. Absolutely. The more he does, them more you'll have against him. Your CCTV cameras cover both the back and front areas? And capture sound, too? And they send you 'alerts'? Cool. Is it WiFi? If so, there's a good chance you can set up a PC as a recording device, but it depends on the protocol used - ask on the maker's website or Fb page. It'll have a built-in SD card? If so, the worst case is that you may need to remove this to download the clips required with any tasty alert. I use Imou cameras, and they do have a paid-for option of cloud storage, which I don't bother with.

Make sure MrA has been informed to not touch either fence, and then just proceed with the repair to the front picket fence as you wish - it's yours. Let him be back-footed, and call the police the instant he literally crosses the line.

I take it you do not have Legal Protection included in your house insurance?

Thank you again.

And it's perfectly ok for your hubby to be a non-confrontational type! In fact, in situations like this, it is really important to not respond in any way that the perp could try and use against you. No arguments. No accusations. But do go about your normal life as matter-of-fact as you can.

His bizarre behaviour at the fence - can you get some clips of this, showing that he is clearly reacting to your presence? Ie, the clip showing him not there, you come out and do your business, and he suddenyl appears and hovers around the other side of the fence? If so, get some clips on different days, and use this when you do insist the LA's A-S Dept take action against him.

Keep building the evidence.

busybee100

WIAWSNB said:

busybee100 said:

Firstly thank you for your long and detailed reply, replying to you has really helped me sort my thoughts.

Yes the title deeds say the boundary is Mr As and both fences were bought by the previous owner of our house and stand on our land other than where the rear garden fence slopes towards the 'patio' panels and fixes to Mr As side of the post holding up the panels. 

To clarify - no-one 'owns' the 'boundary'. The 'boundary' is an invisible line that divides your two properties, and its location is usually established when the properties are built. Yes, they can 'move' over time, if folk keep replacing fences without due care, and if no record is kept of its original position. 

With two fully-detached houses, for example, it can be hard to determine afterwards where the boundary should be, as deeds maps are very crude, low resolution, and of a tiny scale. It then comes down to things like whether there any fixed identifiable landmarks - stone gate pillars, a garage built tight against the boundary, and stuff like that. Also, historical records - old Google Earth views, photos taken by previous owners, the recollections of occupants and neighbours... Often a 'mare! 

However, in your case, it seems as tho' you can evidence, with far more reliability than the new neighbour, MrOle, sorry, MrA, may try, what the situation is in your back gardens; the previous owner of your property paid for, and installed, a new fence, and positioned it on their (now, your) side of the boundary line. I expect, then, that the previous (dilaptated?) fence was just on the neighbour's side of the boundary (in both cases, the backs of the posts can 'touch' the boundary line, as best as it's known). That is all fine - you can evidence this by the account of your previous owner, the son of the previous neighbour, and another neighbour; if required, they could all produce a 'statement of truth' to this effect. And, very possibly, you can evidence it further by what is visible on the ground? That is all good. I would then let MrA be the one who'd need to prove the fence is now 'his' - he'd fail.

Yes, moving a fence like what your previous owner did is typically what can cause boundaries to 'move', but that is only if records are not kept of what occurred, and if folk do such things without making it clear what has happened - and making it clear that the true boundary remains in its correct position. Phew! So, I'd suggest that your rear garden fence is fine, and confirmed by your solicitor-fired warning to not touch.
He had already stripped the uprights off two sections of our picket fence, I suspect in an effort to weaken them, before we spoke to our solicitor and there has been no more damage since. His letter to our solicitor suggested we pay half towards his new composite fence that he would replace the wooden fence with. And that as the wooden fence had been there many years and it was his boundary to maintain he could now legally claim the fence as the boundary. No, he cannot claim the boundary has changed - it hasn't. And, no, you do not need to pay halfs towards anything (unless you do decide to make it a 'party' boundary. But why should you?!) You can evidence - using various witnesses - that the picket fence was placed there by the owner of your house, and on their side of the 'known' boundary line. That picket fence is therefore yours, 100%. The fact that he stopped touching it after your letter suggest this message got through. Is your neighbour also using a solicitor to communicate, or just writing his own letters?

Can we sue him for a replacement? Our solicitor told us it would likely cost 10s of thousands and there was no guarantee we would even get costs back. Could you sue him? Yes. Would you ultimately win? Most likely, yes. Would it be worth it? Most likely no. Why not? Becuase when you are dealing with a dysfunctional character, 'reason' will not prevail. Part of the process will likely involve expendature on determining boundaries, and lot's of to-and-fro communications with your solicitor, each one allowing them to pocket £100's for the privilege. You can do a lot of this work yourself - eg, writing a 'cease and desist' letter, outlining that he must not touch your fence again. And you ensure it's delivered in a recordable method.

Now that he's been informed - in a recordable way - to not touch your fence, then you would be on safer ground in taking action should he damage it more, but it's always a risk if you don't have Legal Protection (do you?)

The front garden has been left as I dont know what to do given the gap Mr A has left. The solicitor said if we go to court he thinks a judge would say it was a party wall and it would be ok for us to rebuild it. As it stands there is a trench about 40cm deep where about 20cm deep is the rough edge of our land.

I don't fully understand what has happened here, but if you are confident that you can determine where the 'true' boundary line lies - ie, presumably behind where your picket fence posts now sit - then you can ,
Our solicitor suggested we apply for a determined boundaries resolution. We have had the initial survey (£400+vat) and drawings done and a site visit has been arranged for next week. I am in two minds about going through with the site visit as it will be £1200+vat and I dont even know if it will help unless we go for a determined boundary application which will be more again. Personally (unless you have money to burn), I wouldn't fork out such sums when you have good witnesses to confirm what has happened - ie, new fences built on your side of the boundary line by the previous owner of your house. Pass the buck on to MrA to take action if he wants to - and he almost certainly won't. Have a chat with your witnesses, and ask if they'd be happy to write 'statements of truth' regarding what happend with the fences should it be required. And then I'd just repair the picket fence - replace the top rail - coupled with a C&D letter to MrA. The second he touches that fence, you get the police involved again - it will be TwithCPD.

Although I do feel he has taken a particular disliking to me, he tries to intimidate anyone who doesn't adhere to what he believes is correct. If anyone tries to explain he conflates and misunderstands then shouts at them until they walk away. His letters take the same form, jumbled, nasty, contradictory and lies. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to print them out and frame them for everyone to read. I need to remember he's deliberately trying to goad me and keep gathering evidence. Absolutely. The more he does, them more you'll have against him. Your CCTV cameras cover both the back and front areas? And capture sound, too? And they send you 'alerts'? Cool. Is it WiFi? If so, there's a good chance you can set up a PC as a recording device, but it depends on the protocol used - ask on the maker's website or Fb page. It'll have a built-in SD card? If so, the worst case is that you may need to remove this to download the clips required with any tasty alert. I use Imou cameras, and they do have a paid-for option of cloud storage, which I don't bother with.

Make sure MrA has been informed to not touch either fence, and then just proceed with the repair to the front picket fence as you wish - it's yours. Let him be back-footed, and call the police the instant he literally crosses the line.

I take it you do not have Legal Protection included in your house insurance?

Thank you again.

And it's perfectly ok for your hubby to be a non-confrontational type! In fact, in situations like this, it is really important to not respond in any way that the perp could try and use against you. No arguments. No accusations. But do go about your normal life as matter-of-fact as you can.

His bizarre behaviour at the fence - can you get some clips of this, showing that he is clearly reacting to your presence? Ie, the clip showing him not there, you come out and do your business, and he suddenyl appears and hovers around the other side of the fence? If so, get some clips on different days, and use this when you do insist the LA's A-S Dept take action against him.

Keep building the evidence.

A little bit more background.

I think should have said the title deeds have the S on Mr. As side of the boundary line.

Ours is a semi with Mr. A, I have copies of the original plans for the estste & the original plans for the properties showing the party wall straight through the buildings and inline with what has been observed as the boundary since they were built. Our previous, now deceased neighbour lived here from the 60s, our previous owner, also deceased, moved in in the 2000s. The neighbour has also lived here from the 60s. My understanding is there was never a fence between the gardens only the two panels dividing the patios. The fence put in about 20 years ago is still ok. The posts are firm and the fence is not flexing except now where Mr. A. has removed the uprights. The front fence was made good when we had our gardens landscaped about 3 years ago.

The neighbours son is friends with a relative of Mr As wife and says he doesnt want to get involved! The neighbour across the road will provide a statement, she was here with our previous owner when the fence was put in and remembers the contractors name, although he's no longer in business unfortunately.

I think it is obvious where the boundaries are as there are slim breeze blocks standing upright outlining the properties. I can post photos if it doesn't cause legal problems.

Mr. A is writing his own letters which is great in one respect because it shows how chaotic his thinking is but it is also unproductive!

The cameras we have send an alert and have the option of live streaming and remote recording as well as the alert clips and we have signed up to the cloud. I just hate viewing the clips but actually this is where my husband could support me so I'm going to ask him to take more initative. We only have one in place at the moment which is when Mr. A started to go near the fence. If anyone touches his fence (front garden)(not us) he tells them to get off, it's his fence, via his CCTV. Another camera is going up this weekend which is the area where he used to watch me.

Going forward.

I think if I find someone willing to fix the fence they will need to saw it off the post holding Mr. A's panels. Or could I wait? It will be protected from the worst of the weather once the composite fence is in place. 

If we dont go with the site visit but put together the evidence we have (plans, photos, the detailed measurements). Who would take notice of it? The surveyor did talk about the report not being CPR35 compliant.

We have house insurance with legal included but I'm not sure it would cover a retrospective claim given the damage was done last year. Is there any indemnity or company I should be looking at? Or has that ship sailed?

So I think broadly there are some positives. He did stop staring into our house, glaring at me and my husband and watching me while I worked outside when I confronted him. He did stop damaging the fence when he got the solicitors letter.

He's maybe not goading me but testing our response to touching our fence and letting his dog stand against it. Does that mean I should respond? Is that all he respects? He's not done it for the last two nights maybe hes waiting for a letter? We'll see how his behaviour changes when the next camera goes up!

Thank you again for your reply, I can't believe how much writing things out has helped.

WIAWSNB

Do'h! I'd assumed - from you questioning where the boundary lay - that your houses were detached, but you are 'semi'?

Ok, some facts:

1) The boundary lies where you say - in the exact middle between your two symmetrical houses. This will be easy to determine, to the very inch.

Everything on your side is yours to do with as you wish, and vickyverka.

2) The deeds for each property often show 'responsibility' for the fences, ofetn marked by a series of 'T's on the side of responsibility, but actually (and I didn't know this until it was evidenced to me on another forum), unless these Ts are accompanied with written directions in the deeds, they do not indicate responsibility. They may well 'imply' or 'suggest', but without text they mean effectively now't.

3) Regardless of where any Ts may lie, even if accompanied with 'responsibility' text, unless it states that you must maintain a physical fence or boundary, then you don't need to (unless it's to keep animals within your own land). If one party simply refuses to erect a fence, even tho' the deeds says they are 'responsible' for that boundary, then there's next to now't that can be done to force them. Neighbours usually comply just becuase they are neighbourly.

4) Now that you know where - exactly - the boundary lies, it ain't going to move! You could place your fence a yard inside your garden, but the 'boundary' will remain where it was - down the exact middle of your houses.

So, put away boundary surveyor - they ain't needed. I presume you can determine the exact middle of your two houses? If they have matching windows, for example, you measure from each and find the middle. A chimney stack? Ditto. So, step one is to determine this to whatever accuracy you want - it should be peasy.

If their two 'patio' panels are clearly on your side, it's up to you to decide what to do with them. If you don't want his panels on your land, you may remove them (carefully) and place them on his lawn. If you are inclined to have this done, then cover yourself 100% by first giving him notice by a recordable means, and allowing him the opportunity to remove them first by the Xth of April "or I cannot be held responsible for any inadvertent damage caused". His panels are currently 'trespassing' :-) If he doesn't remove them - and he won't - your fencer can.

At the front, ditto. There is no 'party' or 'shared' boundary - there is only an easily detemined line which is the true boundary. And you can place on your side whatever you like (within Planning rules - eg max height and stuff).

I would not consider any shared or party arrangement going forward - just do your own thing.

If this wall was at some point laid straddling the boundary, then - yes - it has become a 'party' responsibility, so you should only affect whatever is on your side. This might be hard if it's a wall, but you would be within your rights to have a builder slice down it using a masonry saw if its possible, but you may be responsible for any damage caused to his 'half'!

Could you explain fully what the situation at the front is? Yes, you can post photos if you like, but shield your neighbour's privacy from the pics.

Simply ignore his silly letters - but do hold on to them. Don't ignore the person himself should you cross paths, but keep any communication in your control by asking questions. Always questions :-)

"Where is the middle of our houses?" "So, where is the true boundary line?" Repeat ad nauseam. If he tries to suggest that this somehow doesn't matter, then just smile and walk away. Walking away is the ultimate control. Make sure your CCTV is operational...

And now have the front of your property sorted the way YOU want. If he interferes, then call the police. They won't get involved in a 'civil' dispute, but this ain't one of them - the fact it's a semi means the boundary is obviously defineable, so you simply point out to the Bobby that the boundary is 'there', you've informed MrA of this, and you are exercising your right to place a fence on your land - and he is physically/verbally interferring with this right. It is now a potentially a criminal offence, or certainly at great risk of becoming one. They will tell him to C&D, and to sort it out in the correct legal manner. Of course, the guy won't, because even the slimiest solicitor will advise him of the ultimate outcome. And if a silly solicitor does send you a letter, call your LP - this is a new issue. 

Once you have set up good CCTV coverage, feel confident in challenging his bizarre behaviour if you want to - put him on the back foot. Ask what he's doing as he stands there staring whenever you come out, if he is doing something obviously designed to intimidate or unerve you. The dawg standing against the fence shouldn't be an issue :-) But if he is obviously coming out when he knows you are there, and staring over the fence at you, challenge him on his behaviour - questions. Don't get involved in an argument or discussion, but be 100% calm and in control. Take it as far as you wish, depending on the circumstances; if he tries to fob it off with a "I'm just out in my garden", you can counter with facts; "Well, the last few times I've come out here, you came out immediately afterwards, and stood in the same place, staring directly at me. Why? I have all this recorded. If it continues, I will be reporting it." Ignore - don't respond to - any daftness from him. End the conversation when you want to.

Devious folk are undermined by facts. Downlaod the clips, and store them securely. Don't share them with anyone - they are only for evidence should this be required.

Pleased you have LP. Although 'issues' have been going on for some time, if he does something clearly new and different - damage the rear fence, for example - then they should respond. After all, it's a clear 'win' scenario for them.

busybee100

Back garden

busybee100

Also back garden showing edging blocks

busybee100

This is whats left of the  front

WIAWSNB

busybee100 said:

Back garden

That's useful but it needs context. I'm guessing that the RHside is yours? What block wall is that?

And - most importantly - have you determined the mid-point of your two houses yet? 

If necessary, take a photo looking up at your houses, as flat-close to the fence as you can, so we can compare the properties. Remove anything from their side that could compromise their privacy, but leave things like the edge of their first winodw or door, the chimney stack if there is one, etc.

WIAWSNB

busybee100 said:

This is whats left of the  front

Again, it means very little as it is. And, again, we need a pic taken directly face-on to your houses, so we can determine where the exact mid point is. Have you determined this yet? Are your houses symmetrical?

Once you do, then you can add lines to these pics to indicate where the exact, true boundary lies. And then you can make your decision.