Plain English guidance on probate next steps

Keep_pedalling

Cobbler_tone said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Cobbler_tone said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If the house is in trust then he should be looking a a STEP solicitor not the Co-op. Unfortunately putting your house in trust complicates things significantly, and what should have been a simple process no longer is.

As the will was generated by the Co-op and where the trust is mentioned, they will be the first port of call. There is a call booked to discuss (probate/house etc) and my OH is extremely organised and armed with questions. Even the passing of monies as my F-I-L suggested a joint account to pass over, which we suggested nothing happens until advice is taken. We'll do whatever is required to uncomplicate things and both intelligent people, so if we are not clear we will ask. The Co-op drafted it and have STEP solicitors.

I did ask before, but are we talking about a trust created by the will giving her spouse a life interest via an immediate post death interest trust or is it a living trust as you stated in your opening post? These are very different things and hopefully it is the former which is far less complex and is tax efficiency. 

We are not sure, hence why getting the experts to help us understand matters and take the appropriate action. It is to ensure that (at least) half of the house is left to the children, or at least that was their intention. It would have been the Co-op rocking up at the WI meeting, so who knows what they signed up for.

I am sure after taking the appropriate advice and appropriate action it will be resolved. What I’ve learnt is that it sounds potentially complicated enough not to try and self serve, especially when grieving and trying to minimise adding unnecessary stress. TBH the financial side has been the least of our worries, hence why it has been over three months before we have tried stepping up to the inevitable act of sorting the affairs out.

Hopefully it is a simple IPDI trust created by her will, do you have a copy of it?

Cobbler_tone

Keep_pedalling said:

Cobbler_tone said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If the house is in trust then he should be looking a a STEP solicitor not the Co-op. Unfortunately putting your house in trust complicates things significantly, and what should have been a simple process no longer is.

As the will was generated by the Co-op and where the trust is mentioned, they will be the first port of call. There is a call booked to discuss (probate/house etc) and my OH is extremely organised and armed with questions. Even the passing of monies as my F-I-L suggested a joint account to pass over, which we suggested nothing happens until advice is taken. We'll do whatever is required to uncomplicate things and both intelligent people, so if we are not clear we will ask. The Co-op drafted it and have STEP solicitors.

I did ask before, but are we talking about a trust created by the will giving her spouse a life interest via an immediate post death interest trust or is it a living trust as you stated in your opening post? These are very different things and hopefully it is the former which is far less complex and is tax efficiency. 

It is a 'living Trust' and we have a call with the Co-op this afternoon who drew it up, along with the will. 
Lots of questions and I am sure we will know exactly we need to do later, or any areas we need them to do. If it is a case of probate for her accounts I am sure we will do that ourselves, as have details in place of all of her accounts and assets. It's no issue to pay for anything where we need professional help and the main motivation is to do things right in line with the circumstances created, without creating any potential future headaches.

As I stated previously, I am sure the likes of the Co-op know what they are doing when they get the olds to part with £3k plus to do these things, although I am sure they cover themselves very robustly!

poseidon1

Cobbler_tone said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Cobbler_tone said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If the house is in trust then he should be looking a a STEP solicitor not the Co-op. Unfortunately putting your house in trust complicates things significantly, and what should have been a simple process no longer is.

As the will was generated by the Co-op and where the trust is mentioned, they will be the first port of call. There is a call booked to discuss (probate/house etc) and my OH is extremely organised and armed with questions. Even the passing of monies as my F-I-L suggested a joint account to pass over, which we suggested nothing happens until advice is taken. We'll do whatever is required to uncomplicate things and both intelligent people, so if we are not clear we will ask. The Co-op drafted it and have STEP solicitors.

I did ask before, but are we talking about a trust created by the will giving her spouse a life interest via an immediate post death interest trust or is it a living trust as you stated in your opening post? These are very different things and hopefully it is the former which is far less complex and is tax efficiency. 

It is a 'living Trust' and we have a call with the Co-op this afternoon who drew it up, along with the will. 
Lots of questions and I am sure we will know exactly we need to do later, or any areas we need them to do. If it is a case of probate for her accounts I am sure we will do that ourselves, as have details in place of all of her accounts and assets. It's no issue to pay for anything where we need professional help and the main motivation is to do things right in line with the circumstances created, without creating any potential future headaches.

As I stated previously, I am sure the likes of the Co-op know what they are doing when they get the olds to part with £3k plus to do these things, although I am sure they cover themselves very robustly!

Be interested in the outcome of Co-op's explanation and justification of the lifetime trust created in respect of the matrimonial home.

These are  generally  considered highly inappropriate (especially for very modest sized estates) and frowned on by the majority of forum contributors here. 

Make sure, Co op has dealt with registration of the Trust on HMRC's  Trust register ( at some point) otherwise the children ( Trustees) maybe on the hook for non compliance penalties.

Assuming this trust was created by both parents  well after March 2006, it is also potentially  liable to 10 year anniversary IHT reporting obligations.  So hopefully the property value is considerably below £650k in value (2 times the nil rate band) since 6% IHT charge maybe in point on the excess. 

You  may well have a steep learning curve with regard to the intricacies of this trust, and question exactly what benefit it was supposed to have achieved. 

Cobbler_tone

Firstly, this was the parents doing, so had all happened before anyone was aware. Edited because a tad unfair. They did it for the right reasons to protect their assets for the children.

The (half) property and rest of the assets all go into a trust, with the children trustees.
I have just listened to the call and it sounds that complicated that you wouldn't want the stress of trying to unpick it all, dot the 'i's and cross the 't's.
Land registry, house valuations, registering trusts, probate, HMRC etc.

Helpful chap, all done for you at the bargain cost of £5k....

Time to reflect and decide whether there is a lot of smoke and mirrors and whether we can DIY.  The reality is that the beneficiaries won't have the time and emotional capacity to cover everything off, which I am sure what they rely on.

poseidon1

Cobbler_tone said:

Firstly, this was the parents doing, so had all happened before anyone was aware. Edited because a tad unfair. They did it for the right reasons to protect their assets for the children.

The (half) property and rest of the assets all go into a trust, with the children trustees.
I have just listened to the call and it sounds that complicated that you wouldn't want the stress of trying to unpick it all, dot the 'i's and cross the 't's.
Land registry, house valuations, registering trusts, probate, HMRC etc.

Helpful chap, all done for you at the bargain cost of £5k....

Time to reflect and decide whether there is a lot of smoke and mirrors and whether we can DIY.  The reality is that the beneficiaries won't have the time and emotional capacity to cover everything off, which I am sure what they rely on.

Some confusion here, you are now saying  ( I think ) that on death mother's  half of the property goes into trust together with all her 6 figure cash? That is certainly not a 'living trust'  by the mother ( ie a trust set up whilst she was still living'). It is an IPDI trust as   previously intimated by Keep_pedalling, and my last post can be largely  ignored. However if IPDI then only complicated for those who do not understand what they are designed to do.

Frankly given that you say the children will not have the head space to operate a trust which will involve managing and investing the cash as trustees together with the ongoing annual trustee tax returns, the family should all sit down and soberly decide if they really want the bother of the trust given that its likely primary objective is potential protection from nursing home fees ( unless of course  a 2nd marriage by father is also  considered  a possibility).

They are by no means committed to keeping it. They have ample time to execute a deed of variation of mother's will to redirect all the trust assets bound for the trust, back to father's absolute ownership. They can then help  manage their father's affairs on a straight forward LOA basis, without the complexity of the trust. Alternatively they could just  retain the house in trust, but all cash varied back to father's personal ownership thereby removing annual trust tax return compliance for trust income.

However if trust protection of all mother's assets is considered paramount, the  £5k you quote is only the starting point of the professional fees to be levied in years to come if the children do not have the inclination to handle the annual trust work themselves.

 Important to stress that as indicated above   they have  choices here.

Cobbler_tone

poseidon1 said:

Cobbler_tone said:

Firstly, this was the parents doing, so had all happened before anyone was aware. Edited because a tad unfair. They did it for the right reasons to protect their assets for the children.

The (half) property and rest of the assets all go into a trust, with the children trustees.
I have just listened to the call and it sounds that complicated that you wouldn't want the stress of trying to unpick it all, dot the 'i's and cross the 't's.
Land registry, house valuations, registering trusts, probate, HMRC etc.

Helpful chap, all done for you at the bargain cost of £5k....

Time to reflect and decide whether there is a lot of smoke and mirrors and whether we can DIY.  The reality is that the beneficiaries won't have the time and emotional capacity to cover everything off, which I am sure what they rely on.

Some confusion here, you are now saying  ( I think ) that on death mother's  half of the property goes into trust together with all her 6 figure cash? That is certainly not a 'living trust'  by the mother ( ie a trust set up whilst she was still living'). It is an IPDI trust as   previously intimated by Keep_pedalling, and my last post can be largely  ignored. However if IPDI then only complicated for those who do not understand what they are designed to do.

Frankly given that you say the children will not have the head space to operate a trust which will involve managing and investing the cash as trustees together with the ongoing annual trustee tax returns, the family should all sit down and soberly decide if they really want the bother of the trust given that its likely primary objective is potential protection from nursing home fees ( unless of course  a 2nd marriage by father is also  considered  a possibility).

They are by no means committed to keeping it. They have ample time to execute a deed of variation of mother's will to redirect all the trust assets bound for the trust, back to father's absolute ownership. They can then help  manage their father's affairs on a straight forward LOA basis, without the complexity of the trust. Alternatively they could just  retain the house in trust, but all cash varied back to father's personal ownership thereby removing annual trust tax return compliance for trust income.

However if trust protection of all mother's assets is considered paramount, the  £5k you quote is only the starting point of the professional fees to be levied in years to come if the children do not have the inclination to handle the annual trust work themselves.

 Important to stress that as indicated above   they have  choices here.

Thanks for your opinions.
I pointed out to them the £5k is a drop in the ocean for peace of mind to get everything in place. Any annual maintenance won’t be an issue. They are very intelligent and capable people grieving their mother and sorting out 60 years worth of ‘stuff’ alongside full time careers. The OH retires next year and will be in a better position to do what needs doing. Eg part of the current process is to get two estate agents to provide valuations. Clearly possible but for £60 you let someone do it for you. Register the trust, the land registry process, apply for probate etc.
The parents priority was to ensure half the house was protected and that all monies went to the children. That will be achieved and after the initial set up I am sure can easily be maintained.