How to Bed & ISA

jimjames

thegentleway said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

Timing trading anything at the moment is fraught with risks when the market is moving such massive amounts on a routine daily basis. I know markets go up and down but when prices are changing by 30% in minutes based on a Tweet it's not normal trading conditions and makes something like you're doing very difficult. Having said that, it could equally have gone the other way and you'd have been £500 up.

poseidon1

thegentleway said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

The first part worked: I sold the vanguard fund before noon Friday and got the Friday close price but I bought the ETF at 8:45pm and got the Monday morning opening price :-( Cost me about £500 as the ETF jumped from 486.93p on Friday close to 498.75p on Monday morning.

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

Assuming it was a UK quoted etf, is there any reason you did not buy it immediately after you sold at noon Friday rather than waiting until well after markets closed at 8.45pm? 

Once markets close, you will have no idea what price your trade will be booked on the next trading day, so my advice when buying and selling etfs, is to trade during trading hours so you will see the  'live' price for your trade with no later surprises.

thegentleway

poseidon1 said:

thegentleway said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

The first part worked: I sold the vanguard fund before noon Friday and got the Friday close price but I bought the ETF at 8:45pm and got the Monday morning opening price :-( Cost me about £500 as the ETF jumped from 486.93p on Friday close to 498.75p on Monday morning.

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

Assuming it was a UK quoted etf, is there any reason you did not buy it immediately after you sold at noon Friday rather than waiting until well after markets closed at 8.45pm? 

Once markets close, you will have no idea what price your trade will be booked on the next trading day, so my advice when buying and selling etfs, is to trade during trading hours so you will see the  'live' price for your trade with no later surprises.

I thought market closed at 9pm?

I tried to buy near market close because fund sale would be executed at close price.

wmb194

thegentleway said:

poseidon1 said:

thegentleway said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

The first part worked: I sold the vanguard fund before noon Friday and got the Friday close price but I bought the ETF at 8:45pm and got the Monday morning opening price :-( Cost me about £500 as the ETF jumped from 486.93p on Friday close to 498.75p on Monday morning.

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

Assuming it was a UK quoted etf, is there any reason you did not buy it immediately after you sold at noon Friday rather than waiting until well after markets closed at 8.45pm? 

Once markets close, you will have no idea what price your trade will be booked on the next trading day, so my advice when buying and selling etfs, is to trade during trading hours so you will see the  'live' price for your trade with no later surprises.

I thought market closed at 9pm?

I tried to buy near market close because fund sale would be executed at close price.

No, London and the rest of Europe closes at 16.30. New York closes at 21.00 our time. Given you quote sterling prices, it sounds like your ETF is listed in London.

anskills

I'm in a similar boat but waiting for a week or two until hopefully there is less volatility, i don't tend to rush in when things are all over the place, a week or two will make no difference in the bigger picture

thegentleway

wmb194 said:

thegentleway said:

poseidon1 said:

thegentleway said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

The first part worked: I sold the vanguard fund before noon Friday and got the Friday close price but I bought the ETF at 8:45pm and got the Monday morning opening price :-( Cost me about £500 as the ETF jumped from 486.93p on Friday close to 498.75p on Monday morning.

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

Assuming it was a UK quoted etf, is there any reason you did not buy it immediately after you sold at noon Friday rather than waiting until well after markets closed at 8.45pm? 

Once markets close, you will have no idea what price your trade will be booked on the next trading day, so my advice when buying and selling etfs, is to trade during trading hours so you will see the  'live' price for your trade with no later surprises.

I thought market closed at 9pm?

I tried to buy near market close because fund sale would be executed at close price.

No, London and the rest of Europe closes at 16.30. New York closes at 21.00 our time. Given you quote sterling prices, it sounds like your ETF is listed in London.

Yes FWRG ETF is listed in London! That would explain why it didn't work as I planned. Thanks for explaining, that's very helpful.

thegentleway

anskills said:

I'm in a similar boat but waiting for a week or two until hopefully there is less volatility, i don't tend to rush in when things are all over the place, a week or two will make no difference in the bigger picture

Sounds sensible. I was keen to bed and ISA when the market is down as it means lower profits/CGT in GIA.