How to Bed & ISA

thegentleway

I'd like to sell £20k of VVAAAT from my GIA with iWeb to buy £20k of FWRG in my trading 212 S&S ISA.

In the past, I used the same platform and fund, so I just paid in £20k cash into the S&S ISA and bought/sold on the same day so got the same price. I have £20k cash to do this again however, this time I'm selling a fund and buying an ETF so should I wait for the fund sell to complete before buying the ETF? Just trying to minimise time out of the market. 

eskbanker

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

thegentleway

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

masonic

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

thegentleway

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

masonic

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

Hargreaves Lansdown is a good source of valuation points, and indeed says 9pm:

https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discounts,-prices--and--factsheets/search-results/v/vanguard-esg-screened-dev-world-all-cap-eqt-index-accumulation

thegentleway

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

Hargreaves Lansdown is a good source of valuation points, and indeed says 9pm:

https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discounts,-prices--and--factsheets/search-results/v/vanguard-esg-screened-dev-world-all-cap-eqt-index-accumulation

Thank you; that's very helpful.

DRS1

It doesn't sound as if you are doing a bed and ISA.  In that you sell in the GIA move the money to the ISA and then buy in the ISA.  Here you already have the money for the ISA so when you sell and when you buy is entirely up to you.

masonic

DRS1 said:

It doesn't sound as if you are doing a bed and ISA.  In that you sell in the GIA move the money to the ISA and then buy in the ISA.  Here you already have the money for the ISA so when you sell and when you buy is entirely up to you.

The aim of the game here is to avoid a period of overlap with double the exposure or time out of the market. When markets are so volatile this can have quite significant consequences, while cash locked up in a S&S ISA presumably not earning much is also somewhat undesirable.

thegentleway

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

The first part worked: I sold the vanguard fund before noon Friday and got the Friday close price but I bought the ETF at 8:45pm and got the Monday morning opening price :-( Cost me about £500 as the ETF jumped from 486.93p on Friday close to 498.75p on Monday morning.

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

jimjames

thegentleway said:

thegentleway said:

masonic said:

thegentleway said:

eskbanker said:

If you have sufficient liquid cash to cover the buying within the ISA, then the timing of the sale and purchase are effectively completely decoupled and it's entirely up to you when you do each, i.e. you could overlap them if you wanted or leave a gap of however long you wished.

Indeed but funds don’t get executed until the next day, whereas etf is instant so I buy/sell at same time I’ll purchase etf at price now and sell fund at tomorrow’s price. So I’m asking at which point do I buy the etf to get the timing tight?

Vanguard tend to have quite late valuation times. I've no idea what VVAAAT is, but if you put in the fund order before the cut-off time, then buying the ETF either close to the market close on that day would be the best bet (since first thing the following morning puts you at a time of relatively high spread and volatility in general).

Thank you that's really helpful. Vanguard fund doc says cut off is Daily (12:00 London Time) so presumably midday and market close is 4pm EST so 9pm UK time?

PS: VVAAT = Vanguard ESG Screened Developed World All Cap Equity Index Fund (UK)

What did I do wrong? Would like to learn as need to repeat this for my wife (and should be doing this again next year)

Timing trading anything at the moment is fraught with risks when the market is moving such massive amounts on a routine daily basis. I know markets go up and down but when prices are changing by 30% in minutes based on a Tweet it's not normal trading conditions and makes something like you're doing very difficult. Having said that, it could equally have gone the other way and you'd have been £500 up.