Which form of kitchen extension is the lesser evil - demolition or dead space?

the_midnight_Wolfboy

We have lived in our house for about a year and are looking to do a kitchen extension on the back of our house to bring the 70s house into the modern age.

We love the quirkiness of the house but because of the layout it means I'm struggling to extend in a way that doesn't mean demolition of walls or creating dead space...

The builder naturally prefers building a bigger box extension on the back of the house because naturally its easier, but not sure its the best use of space?

Not sure which the lesser evil is? Any help would greatly be appreciated

I've linked my floor plan and initial ideas. https://imgur.com/a/3J2Xz6J

the_midnight_Wolfboy

Here are the images if the link doesn't work.

Albermarle

The house is already quite spacious, so how about just knocking the kitchen, dining room and snug together, with no extension.
Obviously would be cheaper and you might get away without any need for RSJ's etc.

teaselMay

I'd do as Albermarle suggests too

Doozergirl

I'm inclined to agree.  Eapecially when you have little experience of renovating. your instinct is to extend, but there will be hundreds of options in your house.  Some of it may well be extension, but let's look at what the existing house is achieving for you after a year. 

Tell us what it is that you want from the house.  

What works?  What are you enjoying? 

What is it really missing? What do you wish for that you don't have?  

Which rooms are you using now to their full capacity?  Are there any rooms being largely ignored? 

Section62

the_midnight_Wolfboy said:

We love the quirkiness of the house...

It looks (70's) 'architect designed'.  Is it a one-off or is it part of a development?

The roof arrangement is unusual, which means there may be loadbearing walls in positions where we might not expect to find them in bog-standard housing - and also possible there are hidden structural elements making the whole thing work.

The best starting point is probably to get an accurate survey done of the existing building (i.e. much more reliable than EA plans) and then get a structural engineer to look at the plans to work out what walls (if any) could be removed.

Conventionally you decide what layout you want, then get a SE to work out a solution.  But in your case there are multiple options so it may be worthwhile using the SE to guide you on which options could have economic structural solutions.

Achieving your options 1 or 2 look as if they might involve some fairly substantial steelwork - which is also not a project to take on lightly.

silvercar

Having lived with an T shape kitchen for a few years and now knocked walls out that have made it a big rectangle, I much prefer the open space a rectangle gives you. With the help of our SE, we went with nibs rather than pillars, so preserved the open area. 

I’ve seen a house like your option 2. The dead space was used with storage cupboards all down one side, so felt more hallway than dead space, though it was a particularly dark area with no natural light and made the path from front door to kitchen odd.

PS: while you have the builders in, I’d be inclined to do something upstairs to make a family bathroom.

the_midnight_Wolfboy

The house is already quite spacious, so how about just knocking the kitchen, dining room and snug together, with no extension.
Obviously would be cheaper and you might get away without any need for RSJ's etc

I agree this is probably the best option on a pure ROI basis, but I am slightly concerned that an L shaped kitchen diner might not be the optimum config. I wanted to create something with a bit of wow factor and I think more of a rectangle shape would do that. But it does mean some external groundworks and building which is more costly. 


What works?  What are you enjoying?

We enjoy having a kitchen not far from the snug, we use the snug as a play area where our young kids throw lego around every morning for me to clear up before work. But I would like to create a space which has a clearer open view over the dining area and 'play' area. 

It looks (70's) 'architect designed'.  Is it a one-off or is it part of a development?

It's part of a 70's estate, we love the 70s architecture which is one reason we bought the house, there's about six other houses of this type on the estate.

Achieving your options 1 or 2 look as if they might involve some fairly substantial steelwork - which is also not a project to take on lightly.

This is essentially what the builders said, he described option 1 and 2 as 'a lot of faff' , but with option 3 being the biggest external build not sure if the extra external build costs would offset the incremental steelworks cost of option 1 and 2.

As you say, I think we need an SE around to give a better view of what is really possible for a reasonable amount of effort without being onerous.

PS: while you have the builders in, I’d be inclined to do something upstairs to make a family bathroom.

That's also a separate exercise to re-config upstairs by moving the family bathroom to the back of the house.
Luckily upstairs is mostly plasterboard walls (being a 70s house), so is a little less challenging to re organise. 

Section62

the_midnight_Wolfboy said:

...
PS: while you have the builders in, I’d be inclined to do something upstairs to make a family bathroom.
That's also a separate exercise to re-config upstairs by moving the family bathroom to the back of the house. Luckily upstairs is mostly plasterboard walls (being a 70s house), so is a little less challenging to re organise. 

Plasterboard doesn't mean the walls aren't structural.... architects in the 1970's were being clever with innovative design, so you can potentially expect the unexpected.

One of the things you need to figure out is what the wall I've arrowed is made from and how it is supported.  From the picture it looks like it runs front to back, but the EA floor plans suggest there is little at first floor level to support it (but I suspect the floor plans are inaccurate).  If the wall is masonry there needs to be something fairly substantial to support it, along with the part of the roof load it carries.  If it has some form of cladding or hung tiles then it may just be part of the (timber) roof structure, possibly even a truss running front to back (something like a Warren or Howe truss)

What that is and how it works is likely to influence what you can do on both the first and ground floors.

the_midnight_Wolfboy

@Section62 that's right that roof shape runs front to the back of the house, oddly enough upstairs there doesn't seem to be any brick wall supporting that section of the roof, other than at the front 1 Metre or so of the house. 

Later on I'll check inside the loft to look at the timber structure

Section62

the_midnight_Wolfboy said:

Section62 that's right that roof shape runs front to the back of the house, oddly enough upstairs there doesn't seem to be any brick wall supporting that section of the roof, other than at the front 1 Metre or so of the house. 

Later on I'll check inside the loft to look at the timber structure

Hung tiles, so some form of truss is probably behind them, possibly spanning front to back.

If it is a truss then at the back of the house it sits on the wall between the two windows in the centre bedroom. The shape of the centre rear bedroom, plus having two small windows rather than a large central one, might be explained by the presence of a [Warren/Howe] truss above... but that central pillar of brickwork sits above the kitchen outside doors, so whatever is above those doors is taking a fair amount of load from above.

The orange line represents where that roof edge (/truss) would be - although obviously the two lines should meet as a single staight line.  I'd suspect the left-hand wall of the cupboard 'A' might be providing some support to the roof/truss, but as there is nothing on the ground floor below 'A' support that wall then either 'A' isn't structural, or there may be some hidden supporting structure between the ground and first floors.