Smart Meter Replacement - what happens with the HH data?

Ildhund

MWT said:
Just a small note of caution, the time-base of the meter is not constantly synced to any external reference, small questions like at midnight or as it passes midnight are a little pointless as for example my current meter is about 5 seconds fast right now and I've seen it up to 2-3 minutes out in the past.

That doesn't sound right. My meter's clock time is maintained by the line frequency*, so any error that creeps in by the frequency exceeding 50 Hz should soon be neutralized when it's occasionally a bit below 50 Hz. It would take a long period of too high or low frequency for the clock time to drift appreciably, and I rather thought the DTOs and DNOs worked hard to avoid that sort of thing. 

Ildhund said:

It's just coming up to 23:59 GMT on 31 March, so time to take a reading to submit tomorrow morning ...
[ETA a few minutes later: 1677.019]

I was within a second of the time changing from 23:59 to 00:00, and there was not much electricity being used at the time, so I was fairly confident of having grabbed the IHD-reported reading at midnight. OVO excelled themselves this morning, so the midnight readings were waiting for me when I signed in: Peak 1411.506 + Offpeak 265.513 = Total 1677.019. QED, I think.

---

*  Except when the power goes off, in which case the device's battery-powered internal 32.768 kHz crystal oscillator kicks in to keep it ticking over (!) until power is restored - all according to the manual aforementioned.

MWT

Ildhund said:

MWT said:
Just a small note of caution, the time-base of the meter is not constantly synced to any external reference, small questions like at midnight or as it passes midnight are a little pointless as for example my current meter is about 5 seconds fast right now and I've seen it up to 2-3 minutes out in the past.

That doesn't sound right. My meter's clock time is maintained by the line frequency*, so any error that creeps in by the frequency exceeding 50 Hz should soon be neutralized when it's occasionally a bit below 50 Hz. It would take a long period of too high or low frequency for the clock time to drift appreciably, and I rather thought the DTOs and DNOs worked hard to avoid that sort of thing. 

---

*  Except when the power goes off, in which case the device's battery-powered internal 32.768 kHz crystal oscillator kicks in to keep it ticking over (!) until power is restored - all according to the manual aforementioned.

Understood, but you are describing a system that stands a good chance of being accurate but still is not being synchronised to an external reference, so it can and does drift, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.

For the most part it doesn't really matter much, except if you are on a tariff that uses the half-hour data and you have large loads switching on/off at the start/end of those periods.

Right now with a 4 second error it isn't worth getting the clock reset, when it was between 2-3 minutes out it felt more worthwhile.

Qyburn

Phones4Chris said:

Qyburn said:

The HH data for the day of the meter replacement won't be complete. Even in the unlikely event that data from the old meter is bang up to date when the fuse is pulled, there'll still be a gap before data from the new meter starts.

I think you may have misunderstood. The new meter won't have any gaps, 

Where did I say it would?

QrizB

Ildhund said:

That doesn't sound right. My meter's clock time is maintained by the line frequency*, so any error that creeps in by the frequency exceeding 50 Hz should soon be neutralized when it's occasionally a bit below 50 Hz.

When I was younger I had a radio alarm clock that used grid frequency as it's time base. Every time the clocks changed, I'd notice it had drifted a few minutes over the preceding six months.

Ildhund

QrizB said:
When I was younger ...

I wonder whether frequency control hasn't improved a bit since then ... 

I just checked and found that for the whole of March, the NG frequency polled every five minutes averaged 50.003 (with a maximum of 50.190 and a minimum of 49.816) - and not the 50.000 that I'd expect. So it's indeed likely that the meter's clock will drift by a few seconds over a period. Knowing this, I would have expected that synchronizing the clock would be a routine maintenance item, to be carried out, say, quarterly or annually. SMETS2 expects the clock to be accurate to within ten seconds.

I just checked the time on my IHD - which should be the same as meter time - and found that it's 24 seconds ahead of my two radio-controlled clocks synchronized with the NPL MSF which both magically updated themselves to BST yesterday. So @MWT is quite right, and I apologize for doubting him; perhaps I should ask OVO to resync the clock in case it hasn't been touched since the meter was installed 18 months ago. 

Sorry @Qyburn for this extended detour OT which doesn't have much to do with half-hourly usage data around a meter exchange 🙇‍♂️

Phones4Chris

Qyburn said:

Phones4Chris said:

Qyburn said:

The HH data for the day of the meter replacement won't be complete. Even in the unlikely event that data from the old meter is bang up to date when the fuse is pulled, there'll still be a gap before data from the new meter starts.

I think you may have misunderstood. The new meter won't have any gaps, 

Where did I say it would?

The first part of your post here seemed to be open to interpretation, hence my clarification.

Qyburn

The new meter and comms hub were replaced on Tuesday. It's Kaifa MA120. Both this guy and the previous said they didn't like Aclara. Tests by the fitter indicated everything was fine and communications working. However as of now, nearly 48 hours, a number of things aren't in place .. 

(1) I submitted manual readings from the old meter, as did the fitter. Octopus have generated an export credit, but not a debit for electricity used, nor sent the actual bill.
(2) On my Octopus account it shows the new meter for import but the old for export,  meaning i wouldn'tbe able to submit a manual reading. Or at least not without some hassle.
(3) They're not yet getting data either import or export.  Neither are Bright.
(4) IHD doesn't work ("connection lost")
(5) New Mini provided by the fitter doesn't work (solid green light).

I'm assuming that (1) and (2) need some manual intervention by Octopus, on the phone their guy said they would be dealt with.

I'm told it can take a few days to get data flowing, and that both the IHD and Mini won't start working until then. Any idea or experience about how long that normally takes? I don't want pointlessly chase them if stuff just always takes this long..

Phones4Chris

I would have expected 1) and 2) to have happened correctly by now. I think they need chasing - by Phone!
In view of the fact we had rates changes on April 1st as well as BST on the 30th March, there'll be a load of extra stuff still going through the DCC so 3) and hence 4) & 5) might take a little longer.
Try this that @Ildhund has previously suggested https://homebrew.n3rgy.com/ and see what it says.

Qyburn

Thanks. (1) and (2) were done during yesterday. No actual data in the account as of now. They've also credited some but not all of the Ombudsman recommendations.

I just tried https://homebrew.n3rgy.com/ and I think it correctly identifies the equipment. I haven't cross checked serial numbers but it shows the meter as Kaifa rather than the old Aclara. The only point that looks obviously wrong is ..

"No Export MPAN configured"

 

Qyburn

On the call this morning Octopus say it can take up to 20 days before they get full connection to the meter. Can that really be right?  It smells to me like "stop hassling us for a few weeks". The problem of course is that if there's something they've not done then nobody's going to even look until late this month.

Regarding Export MPAN, on the call she said that was all set up. But in email they say they still need to do so, again in 20 days time "Also, in relation to your email regarding Export, we will need to configure your export and we can do this once we have connected to your meter" 

At the moment I don't need H/H data for export as I'm on a flat rate. I'd need it for IOF but that still appears flakey for Solaredge.