Universal Credit and savings

Teddybear3

Hello, 
When declaring any savings over £6K do you have to declare money that is for bills? 

My assement ends on the 15th of every month. So on the 15th do I need to declare everything in my bank if it comes to over £6K even if say £500 is to bills or can I exclude any money for bills? 

I have no problem declaring any money just want to make sure I’m doing it right. 

Thankyou 

Spoonie_Turtle

You declare all capital.
Income received in an assessment period didn't count towards your savings until the end of the following assessment period.

So total up everything, then total up the income you've received (incurring benefit payments).  Total minus income = capital (savings).
[Furthermore, some of your savings may be disregarded such as if Cost of Living Payments accumulated rather than being spent.  Any Cold Weather Payments in the last 12months, things like that.]

Teddybear3

Me and my partner both work and I care for our disabled son. 

We receive our wages, universal credit, child benefit and DLA. (Is DLA classed as a benefit?)
So I would need to add all of that up (and any money I have saved already) and minus any wages and benefits I received in my assessment period and whatever is left is classed as savings? 

Spoonie_Turtle

Teddybear3 said:

Me and my partner both work and I care for our disabled son. 

We receive our wages, universal credit, child benefit and DLA. (Is DLA classed as a benefit?)
So I would need to add all of that up (and any money I have saved already) and minus any wages and benefits I received in my assessment period and whatever is left is classed as savings? 

Yes that's exactly it.  DLA is a benefit, yes. 

Basically everything that you get paid on a regular basis is income in this context (although most of what you've listed are not taken into account for calculating UC entitlement, just your wages).

HillStreetBlues

TimeLord1 said:

I believe the amount is still as follows 

And yet that is totally inaccurate even if it's a DWP site
It's capital that matters, this is very often different  to monies, savings and or investments.
It's like the DWP wants to make deductions when not entitled too.

Teddybear3

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Teddybear3 said:

Me and my partner both work and I care for our disabled son. 

We receive our wages, universal credit, child benefit and DLA. (Is DLA classed as a benefit?)
So I would need to add all of that up (and any money I have saved already) and minus any wages and benefits I received in my assessment period and whatever is left is classed as savings? 

Yes that's exactly it.  DLA is a benefit, yes. 

Basically everything that you get paid on a regular basis is income in this context (although most of what you've listed are not taken into account for calculating UC entitlement, just your wages).

Sorry to keep asking questions but wouldn’t that mean that I would then have nothing to declare apart from money I already have saved, which is less then £6k anyway so wouldn’t count?
if I add all that up and then minus it all off there’s nothing to declare then?
I don’t always spend all the UC payment or DLA but I still wouldn’t need to declare what I didn’t spend as I minus the UC and DLA anyway?
I rang UC to try and get an answer and the woman said that on the last day of my assessment period I have to declare all money that is in my bank if over £6K but then seemed unsure of her answer. 

HillStreetBlues

TimeLord1 said:

@HillStreetBlues I think I reading something recently that they were changing how calculations will be made easier for means tested reduction for income and assets.

They need to do something, I know the rules but if I didn't I would be having deductions from my UC

Spoonie_Turtle

Teddybear3 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Teddybear3 said:

Me and my partner both work and I care for our disabled son. 

We receive our wages, universal credit, child benefit and DLA. (Is DLA classed as a benefit?)
So I would need to add all of that up (and any money I have saved already) and minus any wages and benefits I received in my assessment period and whatever is left is classed as savings? 

Yes that's exactly it.  DLA is a benefit, yes. 

Basically everything that you get paid on a regular basis is income in this context (although most of what you've listed are not taken into account for calculating UC entitlement, just your wages).

Sorry to keep asking questions but wouldn’t that mean that I would then have nothing to declare apart from money I already have saved, which is less then £6k anyway so wouldn’t count?
if I add all that up and then minus it all off there’s nothing to declare then?
I don’t always spend all the UC payment or DLA but I still wouldn’t need to declare what I didn’t spend as I minus the UC and DLA anyway?
I rang UC to try and get an answer and the woman said that on the last day of my assessment period I have to declare all money that is in my bank if over £6K but then seemed unsure of her answer. 

I'm sorry yet unsurprised you've had bad advice from the UC line.  Everything they say about savings - on the UC form, on the gov.uk page, etc. - makes it sound like you have to report the whole total of everything you have.  But that is wrong, and their own guidance says so (ADM Chapter H1: "H1050 Income becomes capital if it has not been spent by the end of the assessment period after the one in which it was received.").

At the end of each assessment period you add up all of your income for that one assessment period. 
If you then work out that your savings are below £6,000 then there is nothing to report because it won't have any effect on your UC.  It's only if your sabings are over £6,000 that they start to make a deduction.

So if you have (say) £500 of that month's income left in the next assessment period, and you don't spend it, then that £500 becomes part of your savings for the following assessment period.


These figures are all plucked out of thin air, just for example's sake.

So let's say Jan/Feb AP you received £2500.  Your total in all accounts is £7000.  Your savings are therefore £4500, no need to declare anything.

You spend £2000 of that income.

You receive another £2500 income in Feb/Mar AP.
Your total is now £7500, minus the income = £5000. 

So your unspent Jan/Feb income has become savings, but in this example it's all still under £6000 so still no need to declare anything.

HillStreetBlues said:

TimeLord1 said:

I believe the amount is still as follows 

And yet that is totally inaccurate even if it's a DWP site
It's capital that matters, this is very often different  to monies, savings and or investments.
It's like the DWP wants to make deductions when not entitled too.

Regardless of whether it's intentional, certainly makes one wonder how much they're withholding from people through unnecessary (unlawful?) deductions.

NedS

HillStreetBlues said:

TimeLord1 said:

I believe the amount is still as follows 

And yet that is totally inaccurate even if it's a DWP site
It's capital that matters, this is very often different  to monies, savings and or investments.
It's like the DWP wants to make deductions when not entitled too.

In my experience, DWP will simply take the value/balance of any bank/savings account on the given date and blindly use that amount. The agent To-Do that they complete to gather the information is getting better in recognising potential disregards, such as CoL payments, but it doesn't distinguish between what may be income received within the AP versus 'capital' value. They just use whatever the balance of the account is on the day in question as shown on the statement. If you wanted to argue that some is income and not (yet) capital, then I suspect you'd have to request an MR and ask a decision maker to look at it, who is more likely to understand that point rather than JCP front line staff who complete the to-do task to verify capital based on the evidence provided, without having to 'make a decision'.

HillStreetBlues

NedS said:

HillStreetBlues said:

And yet that is totally inaccurate even if it's a DWP site
It's capital that matters, this is very often different  to monies, savings and or investments.
It's like the DWP wants to make deductions when not entitled too.

In my experience, DWP will simply take the value/balance of any bank/savings account on the given date and blindly use that amount. The agent To-Do that they complete to gather the information is getting better in recognising potential disregards, such as CoL payments, but it doesn't distinguish between what may be income received within the AP versus 'capital' value. They just use whatever the balance of the account is on the day in question as shown on the statement. If you wanted to argue that some is income and not (yet) capital, then I suspect you'd have to request an MR and ask a decision maker to look at it, who is more likely to understand that point rather than JCP front line staff who complete the to-do task to verify capital based on the evidence provided, without having to 'make a decision'.

I totally agree, and that's my issue. by giving false information it allows the DWP to retain money that aren't entitled too.  If a claimant give false info and gets overpaid, that can be classed a fraud.

NedS

HillStreetBlues said:

NedS said:

HillStreetBlues said:

And yet that is totally inaccurate even if it's a DWP site
It's capital that matters, this is very often different  to monies, savings and or investments.
It's like the DWP wants to make deductions when not entitled too.

In my experience, DWP will simply take the value/balance of any bank/savings account on the given date and blindly use that amount. The agent To-Do that they complete to gather the information is getting better in recognising potential disregards, such as CoL payments, but it doesn't distinguish between what may be income received within the AP versus 'capital' value. They just use whatever the balance of the account is on the day in question as shown on the statement. If you wanted to argue that some is income and not (yet) capital, then I suspect you'd have to request an MR and ask a decision maker to look at it, who is more likely to understand that point rather than JCP front line staff who complete the to-do task to verify capital based on the evidence provided, without having to 'make a decision'.

I totally agree, and that's my issue. by giving false information it allows the DWP to retain money that aren't entitled too.  If a claimant give false info and gets overpaid, that can be classed a fraud.

To be fair to DWP, the information they are giving isn't false, the issue is how they process that information once they have been given it by a claimant, and whether (or not) they are processing it in accordance with what the law (UC Regs) states. And that is your point - that more often than not they aren't processing it in strict accordance with the law, to the claimant's potential detriment.

To highlight the issue, why don't you make a freedom of information request to ask how many cases / what percentage of capital cases have taken into account and made a deduction for income received in the current AP, which isn't yet to be classed as capital. The answer will probably be that they can't tell you, but in asking the question, you highlight the issue at the policy level, and it makes them look at whether the current implementation is correct or needs improving. When you don't receive a satisfactory answer, you can then ask your MP to raise the issue on your behalf and take it forward. The issue (also discussed here on MSE) of pension contributions and the AET was first brought to DWPs attention through an FOI request, so this can be an effective route to improvement.

I can give you further advice on writing an effective FOI request if you like.