hmrc not with it

[Deleted User]

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation. 

What the OP had asked is a very simple question and I would expect an HMRC employee to know the answer.  But clearly, the fact that this service agent did not know and gone to the point of giving a wrong reply shows the pathetic level of incompetence HMRC staff really are.  Absolute disgrace and should not be tolerated or indeed defended.      

TheSpectator

[Deleted User] said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation. 

What the OP had asked is a very simple question and I would expect an HMRC employee to know the answer.  But clearly, the fact that this service agent did not know and gone to the point of giving a wrong reply shows the pathetic level of incompetence HMRC staff really are.  Absolute disgrace and should not be tolerated or indeed defended.      

So you expect all HMRC staff to be able to know and quote all UK tax legislation? That's quite an ask for a front line advisor just above minimum wage.

Anyways, sometimes poor wording of the questions will give an inaccurate response. i.e. you may think you are asking X but you are asking Y and we don't know exactly what OP asked.

eskbanker

[Deleted User] said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation.

You've dismissed my question as irrelevant and then effectively agreed with its premise!

[Deleted User] said:
What the OP had asked is a very simple question and I would expect an HMRC employee to know the answer.  But clearly, the fact that this service agent did not know and gone to the point of giving a wrong reply shows the pathetic level of incompetence HMRC staff really are.  Absolute disgrace and should not be tolerated or indeed defended.      

We don't know exactly how OP phrased their question or indeed how the HMRC rep framed their answer - what is abundantly clear from numerous threads on here is that many people aren't very good at clearly articulating a question and/or fully understanding the answers to it, and we only have one side of the story here, so it remains a possibility that there was some misunderstanding....

redpete

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

From my head, my expectation when asking a representative of an organisation about how that organisation works.

Of course the way the tax regime works is exceedingly complicated, and I'm sure punters often ask questions in ways that don't help them get the answer, and might not understand an answer when it is given. But if there is a helpline provided by an organisation then I expect agents staffing that helpline to help me with answers (directly, or with a reference to written information, or by transferring to some with more expertise in that area). Is that unreasonable? 

Hoenir

redpete said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

From my head, my expectation when asking a representative of an organisation about how that organisation works.

Of course the way the tax regime works is exceedingly complicated, and I'm sure punters often ask questions in ways that don't help them get the answer, and might not understand an answer when it is given. But if there is a helpline provided by an organisation then I expect agents staffing that helpline to help me with answers (directly, or with a reference to written information, or by transferring to some with more expertise in that area). Is that unreasonable? 

There's easily acccessible highly detailed guides available online at GOV.UK.  

Hoenir

[Deleted User] said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation. 

You do realise that the UK tax code runs to some 21,000 pages and 10 million words......... 

northernstar007

TheSpectator said:

[Deleted User] said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation. 

What the OP had asked is a very simple question and I would expect an HMRC employee to know the answer.  But clearly, the fact that this service agent did not know and gone to the point of giving a wrong reply shows the pathetic level of incompetence HMRC staff really are.  Absolute disgrace and should not be tolerated or indeed defended.      

So you expect all HMRC staff to be able to know and quote all UK tax legislation? That's quite an ask for a front line advisor just above minimum wage.

Anyways, sometimes poor wording of the questions will give an inaccurate response. i.e. you may think you are asking X but you are asking Y and we don't know exactly what OP asked.

if they didnt know the answer they shouldnt be in the job they are paid for as they are a cival servant which my taxes are paying there wages to answer me

northernstar007

Hoenir said:

[Deleted User] said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation. 

You do realise that the UK tax code runs to some 21,000 pages and 10 million words......... 

if they cant do the job they know where the door is 

TheSpectator

northernstar007 said:

TheSpectator said:

[Deleted User] said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

Your question is irrelevant  It's pure common sense to expect someone to do their job efficiently and to know/understand all matters related to their job.  Maybe not necessarily give advise as such, but I would expect HMRC staff to know and be able to quote succinctly, all matters related to UK tax legislation. 

What the OP had asked is a very simple question and I would expect an HMRC employee to know the answer.  But clearly, the fact that this service agent did not know and gone to the point of giving a wrong reply shows the pathetic level of incompetence HMRC staff really are.  Absolute disgrace and should not be tolerated or indeed defended.      

So you expect all HMRC staff to be able to know and quote all UK tax legislation? That's quite an ask for a front line advisor just above minimum wage.

Anyways, sometimes poor wording of the questions will give an inaccurate response. i.e. you may think you are asking X but you are asking Y and we don't know exactly what OP asked.

if they didnt know the answer they shouldnt be in the job they are paid for as they are a cival servant which my taxes are paying there wages to answer me

As the saying goes......pay peanuts.....

eskbanker

redpete said:

eskbanker said:

redpete said:

Hoenir said:

eskbanker said:

It's all these complexities that make it very difficult to construct a question that HMRC can answer with a simple yes/no, and it's always going to be a bit of a lottery phoning them and hoping that each party understands exactly what the other one is (and isn't) saying!

HMRC aren't there to provide a free advice service ( and later getting slammed for misleading or incorrect advice that the individul acts upon ! ). 

They are certainly not there to provide an advice service as in the sort of advice an IFA might give you - i.e. their opinion on what would be the 'best' course of action for you to take. But HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations.

Where are you sourcing this from, i.e. where is this obligation defined?

From my head, my expectation when asking a representative of an organisation about how that organisation works.

But that's an important distinction - OP's question wasn't about how the organisation works, they were seeking guidance about the tax system itself, which is a very different matter, so it remains a stretch to assert that "HMRC are there to give you advice that covers matters of facts of UK tax regulations", even though they should be able to advise on, for example, whether an individual needs to self-assess, or what the deadlines are, etc.

Representatives of an organisation can't be expected to answer everything - if you get on a bus and ask the driver for information about the route or tickets then they should be able to share relevant and accurate information, but if you ask for details about the bus company's profitability or the capacity of the engine, that's going to be out of scope, although I do agree with the point that if unable to answer a question then it's ultimately more helpful to admit to that rather than guessing and getting it wrong.