Declined Section 75

Smoose89

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Ok, so you were outside their 14 day cooling-off period.  So that rules out an entitlement to a full refund.  And it seems that they've incurred more than your deposit value in costs.

I presume this letter was to your credit card company?  I think it unlikely that an organisation with over 25 years' trading history is going to lie in writing to a regulated finance provider.

Is there more to this than you've told us?  The alleged threats, the police taking no action on them, you posting a poor review, them allegedly not refunding the deposit because you left a poor review when they don't have to refund you anyway, now this letter...it all paints a muddled picture I'm afraid, and I'm beginning to think this is more a case of you being late to decide to withdraw and then going all-in from every angle to try and make them refund you.  I'm sorry if I've misjudged the situation, but that's the picture that's built up in my mind as you've added to your posts.

There 14 day period isnt listed anywhere though, doesn't say it on my invoice or there broken link too the t&c's.

No this is everything, I am going to go with another company who even costs more. I only put the bad review cause i was tired of contacting them, I attempted so many times, I was frustrated with the situation hence leaving a bad review. 

I just want my windows done,I pulled out cause if they are like this before the windows are installed what would happen if there was any snag work. Just lost faith in them after countless attempts on phoning.

I pulled out on the 16th day cause i asked them for an update on the 14th which they didnt respond, I just wish i didnt give benefit of the doubt and requested to cancel then cause they wouldnt have this 14 day cooling off period thrown back in my face. Which they didnt make me aware of. Should of also asked for a paper contract but I learnt 1 lesson.

Smoose89

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:

I haven't quoted the 14 day period myself its what the bank has said. So am I not entitled to my money back even though say they havent lost out as a company.

Do you mean that they admit they haven't lost out or that you allege that, based on them not proving loss (yet)?

They say they have lost money but haven't provided anything so say otherwise, on the email conversation it clearly says they need to come out to finalise the measurement and discuss any changes. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Smoose89 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Ok, so you were outside their 14 day cooling-off period.  So that rules out an entitlement to a full refund.  And it seems that they've incurred more than your deposit value in costs.

I presume this letter was to your credit card company?  I think it unlikely that an organisation with over 25 years' trading history is going to lie in writing to a regulated finance provider.

Is there more to this than you've told us?  The alleged threats, the police taking no action on them, you posting a poor review, them allegedly not refunding the deposit because you left a poor review when they don't have to refund you anyway, now this letter...it all paints a muddled picture I'm afraid, and I'm beginning to think this is more a case of you being late to decide to withdraw and then going all-in from every angle to try and make them refund you.  I'm sorry if I've misjudged the situation, but that's the picture that's built up in my mind as you've added to your posts.

There 14 day period isnt listed anywhere though, doesn't say it on my invoice or there broken link too the t&c's.

No this is everything, I am going to go with another company who even costs more. I only put the bad review cause i was tired of contacting them, I attempted so many times, I was frustrated with the situation hence leaving a bad review. 

I just want my windows done,I pulled out cause if they are like this before the windows are installed what would happen if there was any snag work. Just lost faith in them after countless attempts on phoning.

I pulled out on the 16th day cause i asked them for an update on the 14th which they didnt respond, I just wish i didnt give benefit of the doubt and requested to cancel then cause they wouldnt have this 14 day cooling off period thrown back in my face. Which they didnt make me aware of. Should of also asked for a paper contract but I learnt 1 lesson.

The fact they didn't make you aware of their 14 day right to cancel is irrelevant, isn't it?  You had no statutory right to cancel and when you tried to, you were outside of their 14 day window, anyway.  

I think that while court action looks the obvious next step, the fact they came out to measure and seem to have evidence they've placed an order with suppliers to a value more than your deposit makes it possible you won't win. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Smoose89 said:

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:

I haven't quoted the 14 day period myself its what the bank has said. So am I not entitled to my money back even though say they havent lost out as a company.

Do you mean that they admit they haven't lost out or that you allege that, based on them not proving loss (yet)?

They say they have lost money but haven't provided anything so say otherwise, on the email conversation it clearly says they need to come out to finalise the measurement and discuss any changes. 

They have.  They sent a formal letter to your credit card company stating what they'd paid out.  They'd be very foolish to have lied in writing to a credit card company.  If they have, and a court asks them to substantiate their claim, it won't reflect well on them.

eskbanker

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Smoose89 said:

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:

I haven't quoted the 14 day period myself its what the bank has said. So am I not entitled to my money back even though say they havent lost out as a company.

Do you mean that they admit they haven't lost out or that you allege that, based on them not proving loss (yet)?

They say they have lost money but haven't provided anything so say otherwise, on the email conversation it clearly says they need to come out to finalise the measurement and discuss any changes. 

They have.  They sent a formal letter to your credit card company stating what they'd paid out.  They'd be very foolish to have lied in writing to a credit card company.  If they have, and a court asks them to substantiate their claim, it won't reflect well on them.

I think they could be bluffing but that's a world away from being able to prove that!

In their letter they say that their 5-6 week process involves 'the 14 day cooling off period, profile ordering and paint ordering, [etc]', which to me implies that they won't order anything until after expiry of the cooling off period, or at least would do so on a sale or return basis, given the lack of binding customer commitment during those 14 days.

OP ordered on Friday 10th and yet the company claims that by Monday 27th (the next working day after expiry of the cooling off period) the profile and paint have been ordered and paid (irreversibly by implication) - not sure a court would really swallow that, but then again it's not my money at stake....

Smoose89

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Smoose89 said:

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:

I haven't quoted the 14 day period myself its what the bank has said. So am I not entitled to my money back even though say they havent lost out as a company.

Do you mean that they admit they haven't lost out or that you allege that, based on them not proving loss (yet)?

They say they have lost money but haven't provided anything so say otherwise, on the email conversation it clearly says they need to come out to finalise the measurement and discuss any changes. 

They have.  They sent a formal letter to your credit card company stating what they'd paid out.  They'd be very foolish to have lied in writing to a credit card company.  If they have, and a court asks them to substantiate their claim, it won't reflect well on them.

But thats all i have to go off, surely a company wouldnt pay for a custom paint job and order the windows before the final measurement, 

Wouldn't you also send that evidence to the bank that they have paid it?, obviously speculation I know.

Smoose89

eskbanker said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Smoose89 said:

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:

I haven't quoted the 14 day period myself its what the bank has said. So am I not entitled to my money back even though say they havent lost out as a company.

Do you mean that they admit they haven't lost out or that you allege that, based on them not proving loss (yet)?

They say they have lost money but haven't provided anything so say otherwise, on the email conversation it clearly says they need to come out to finalise the measurement and discuss any changes. 

They have.  They sent a formal letter to your credit card company stating what they'd paid out.  They'd be very foolish to have lied in writing to a credit card company.  If they have, and a court asks them to substantiate their claim, it won't reflect well on them.

I think they could be bluffing but that's a world away from being able to prove that!

In their letter they say that their 5-6 week process involves 'the 14 day cooling off period, profile ordering and paint ordering, [etc]', which to me implies that they won't order anything until after expiry of the cooling off period, or at least would do so on a sale or return basis, given the lack of binding customer commitment during those 14 days.

OP ordered on Friday 10th and yet the company claims that by Monday 27th (the next working day after expiry of the cooling off period) the profile and paint have been ordered and paid (irreversibly by implication) - not sure a court would really swallow that, but then again it's not my money at stake....

Thats what im thinking as well why would 1 day of changed of them ordering it. I'm willing to go court all it takes is for them to slip up, his attitude on the call i wouldn't put it past him to try bluff, in my head ,I cant get around why they wouldnt show me there receipt or the bank.
He refers to creating a profile, a profile can be many things such as a pile of paper with a customer number on it, it was like on the initial call confirming I cancelled he didnt say anything about it being ordered just creating a profile. He was saying it to like get make me say say just come and do it, thats what i got from it anyway from my gut.    

Thanks for everyone's time into the matter i know i have taken bit of your time, the amount where they said they paid i didnt think about so will be useful to highlight for.

eskbanker

Smoose89 said:
I cant get around why they wouldnt show me there receipt or the bank.

They're not under any obligation to show it to you or your bank, but if it reached court then would be required to evidence losses at that stage.  Assuming that bank processed it as chargeback, then the merchant can dispute the claim with very little actual evidence - chargeback isn't a court of law with detailed reviews of each side's claims, so when the merchant basically says that you didn't cancel within the cooling off period, that's likely to be enough for the bank to go on.

Smoose89

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:
I cant get around why they wouldnt show me there receipt or the bank.

They're not under any obligation to show it to you or your bank, but if it reached court then would be required to evidence losses at that stage.  Assuming that bank processed it as chargeback, then the merchant can dispute the claim with very little actual evidence - chargeback isn't a court of law with detailed reviews of each side's claims, so when the merchant basically says that you didn't cancel within the cooling off period, that's likely to be enough for the bank to go on.

Thats good to know thanks, You think ombudsman will be of any use though when i take it to them?

eskbanker

Smoose89 said:

eskbanker said:

Smoose89 said:
I cant get around why they wouldnt show me there receipt or the bank.

They're not under any obligation to show it to you or your bank, but if it reached court then would be required to evidence losses at that stage.  Assuming that bank processed it as chargeback, then the merchant can dispute the claim with very little actual evidence - chargeback isn't a court of law with detailed reviews of each side's claims, so when the merchant basically says that you didn't cancel within the cooling off period, that's likely to be enough for the bank to go on.

Thats good to know thanks, You think ombudsman will be of any use though when i take it to them?

Doubt it, to be honest - based on what you've posted, I don't see that the bank has done much wrong here.

As above, I'm assuming that they've attempted a chargeback, which was defeated by the merchant challenging it, but if so then you could insist on a section 75 claim, which holds the bank directly liable regardless of what the merchant says - they should have explained to you that rejection of the chargeback claim still leaves the possibility of s75.

However, I don't think it would be wise to try to launch a s75 claim unless or until you've assembled more compelling evidence of a breach of contract, which would clearly involve reviewing its terms....