New pip criteria

stepmills6

Hi does anyone know if a pensioner on long term Pip is affected by the new rules coming into force ?find it hard to find a clear answer relating to this.

HillStreetBlues

On the info supplied so far yes they will be.

SURVIVEDCOVID

HillStreetBlues said: "On the info supplied so far yes they will be."

I respectfully disagree with the above. 

Has HillStreetBlues read the related 84 page Green Paper; 'Pathways to Work: Reforming Benefits and Support to Get Britain Working'?. Therein following wording is included:

"On page 83 of 84 it is stated under the sub-heading - People above State Pension age  -  This Green Paper considers health and disability issues for those of working age. However, some proposals will affect people over State Pension Age, for example those in mixed-age households in Universal Credit. 

On page 43 of the Green Paper there is the following sub-heading - Improving communication with people receiving an ongoing award in PIP who are likely to remain on disability benefits for life.

Sn 170 then states - ,,,, people receive an ongoing award in PIP if the impact of their health condition or disability is not likely to change in the long-term, or if they have the highest level of award and the impact of their condition is only likely to get worse. Ongoing awards can be given at any award level in PIP. 
Sn 172 states - By providing PIP awards for an ongoing period, we remove the need for people whose conditions are unlikely to improve to undergo more regular award reviews. Yet we still hear that people with lifelong and progressive conditions are concerned they are being put through unnecessary repeated assessments. " 

Even the above government statements are a tad open ended. However, having spoken with truly well informed experts I understand that the planned welfare reforms merely focus on working age people and NOT pensioners claiming PIP, particularly those with long term conditions. The clue there is in the Green Paper title, namely support to get people working; for the main part pensioners do not work and that further affirms that pensioners on PIP are not on Liz Kendall's radar.

Also as stated above the pre-existing 'light touch' regime should remain. Given the lack of resource in the DWP then the reality is that pensioners on PIP will not be troubled for 10 years, and most likely they will never be re-assessed even on the 'light touch' basis. In any case a 'light touch review is NOT a full re-assessment - if one's condition has not improved or changed then that should be all that is required to say to the DWP if they were ever to proactively contact a pensioner on PIP. 

HillStreetBlues comment may cause more anxiety. I thought that was the media's speciality lol 

Any comments appreciated. 

stepmills6

Thank you for that ,it was very helpful and very thorough 

SURVIVEDCOVID

stepmills6 said:

Thank you for that ,it was very helpful and very thorough 

My pleasure. I am fairly new on here, but thought I would do my best to quote from the real source, i.e. the government's actual Green Paper. 

Muttleythefrog

SURVIVEDCOVID said:

stepmills6 said:

Thank you for that ,it was very helpful and very thorough 

My pleasure. I am fairly new on here, but thought I would do my best to quote from the real source, i.e. the government's actual Green Paper. 

I wouldn't rely on the headings.... PIP isn't even an out of work benefit (in fact neither is UC or ESA) and some of the people targeted (directly or indirectly) are working (including some as unpaid carers!)... the focus of the green paper is on cutting the benefits bill as further made clear in the 2 changes in the budget this week just days after it was published. If that didn't make it evident enough then the respective savings versus investment in helping disabled/sick people back into work surely puts it in black and white reality. They're even scrapping the very assessment which looks at disablement in terms of work so barriers can be understood better.. and will stop many disabled people from being able to retain their carer (paid or unpaid) who might make working a reality or realistic. While the green paper suggests it considers only working age people it didn't really consider carers either but we know the latter will be impacted... we cannot be sure pensioners won't be affected and I see no reference to their exclusion from the changes.

But as you point to in this case they'd be unlikely affected by proposals.. and surely not if they are typically going to get a 4 point or more scoring DL descriptor. (I assume they're not partnered with someone of working age). It looks likely the uprating will annually continue although as was keenly reported a freeze was dropped at last minute (one assumes had it proceeded it would have affected all claimants and my private discussion with MP suggests so). Lots of details missing in proposals makes it difficult to be certain about much and especially given many affected are subject to assessments of disablement which in themselves could affect future entitlement aside from any rule changes. It's also impossible to ignore that, given the proposals barely lasted a week before seeing change due to economic information, there will be economic uncertainty/pressures in the years ahead that could change policies involved or new... some of these changes also face the parliamentary processes during which they could see amendment before ever becoming law.

HillStreetBlues

SURVIVEDCOVID said:

HillStreetBlues said: "On the info supplied so far yes they will be."

I respectfully disagree with the above. 

Has HillStreetBlues read the related 84 page Green Paper; 'Pathways to Work: Reforming Benefits and Support to Get Britain Working'?. Therein following wording is included:

"On page 83 of 84 it is stated under the sub-heading - People above State Pension age  -  This Green Paper considers health and disability issues for those of working age. However, some proposals will affect people over State Pension Age, for example those in mixed-age households in Universal Credit. 

On page 43 of the Green Paper there is the following sub-heading - Improving communication with people receiving an ongoing award in PIP who are likely to remain on disability benefits for life.

Sn 170 then states - ,,,, people receive an ongoing award in PIP if the impact of their health condition or disability is not likely to change in the long-term, or if they have the highest level of award and the impact of their condition is only likely to get worse. Ongoing awards can be given at any award level in PIP. 
Sn 172 states - By providing PIP awards for an ongoing period, we remove the need for people whose conditions are unlikely to improve to undergo more regular award reviews. Yet we still hear that people with lifelong and progressive conditions are concerned they are being put through unnecessary repeated assessments. " 

Even the above government statements are a tad open ended. However, having spoken with truly well informed experts I understand that the planned welfare reforms merely focus on working age people and NOT pensioners claiming PIP, particularly those with long term conditions. The clue there is in the Green Paper title, namely support to get people working; for the main part pensioners do not work and that further affirms that pensioners on PIP are not on Liz Kendall's radar.

Also as stated above the pre-existing 'light touch' regime should remain. Given the lack of resource in the DWP then the reality is that pensioners on PIP will not be troubled for 10 years, and most likely they will never be re-assessed even on the 'light touch' basis. In any case a 'light touch review is NOT a full re-assessment - if one's condition has not improved or changed then that should be all that is required to say to the DWP if they were ever to proactively contact a pensioner on PIP. 

HillStreetBlues comment may cause more anxiety. I thought that was the media's speciality lol 

Any comments appreciated. 

No where does it say pensioners will be protected from the changes to PIP. Any reassessment should  be a "light touch" confirming the points a person already has but what happens if there are no 4 points? Take time to read what you posted
"By providing PIP awards for an ongoing period, we remove the need for people whose conditions are unlikely to improve to undergo more regular award reviews" it doesn't say NO reviews.
We can all have a guess, but you shouldn't disagree with a factual comment.
PS your clue isn't a very good one.lol

SURVIVEDCOVID

Muttleythefrog said:

I wouldn't rely on the headings.... PIP isn't even an out of work benefit (in fact neither is UC or ESA) and some of the people targeted (directly or indirectly) are working (including some as unpaid carers!)... the focus of the green paper is on cutting the benefits bill as further made clear in the 2 changes in the budget this week just days after it was published. If that didn't make it evident enough then the respective savings versus investment in helping disabled/sick people back into work surely puts it in black and white reality. They're even scrapping the very assessment which looks at disablement in terms of work so barriers can be understood better and will stop many disabled people being able to retain their carer (paid or unpaid) who might make working a reality.

But as you point to in this case they'd be unlikely affected by proposals.. and surely not if they are typically going to get a 4 point or more scoring DL descriptor. (I assume they're not partnered with someone of working age). It looks likely the uprating will annually continue although as was keenly reported a freeze was dropped at last minute. Lots of details missing in proposals makes it difficult to be certain about much and especially given many affected are subject to assessments of disablement which in themselves could affect future entitlement aside from any rule changes.

Hear what you say, but there is absolutely no indication in the Green Paper, or elsewhere, that pensioners on PIP will be impacted in any shape or form by the proposed welfare changes. The pre-existing 'light touch' review for pensioners is NOT a conventional re-assessment; far from it.

The only way that a pensioner who is already on PIP could be affected would be if they voluntarily notified the DWP that they had not received 4 points for any PIP Daily Living Needs descriptor, but instead had got at least 8 points based on an accumulation of 2 points. Anybody who did that may well be somewhat stupid. Mind you, even then the DWP may well take many years to even get back to them and that would be several years after the end of 2026 which is when any reforms may be introduced. 

My advice to pensioners is therefore to worry not. As I said previously you are NOT on Liz Kendall's radar and I doubt you ever will be. 

born_again

SURVIVEDCOVID said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

I wouldn't rely on the headings.... PIP isn't even an out of work benefit (in fact neither is UC or ESA) and some of the people targeted (directly or indirectly) are working (including some as unpaid carers!)... the focus of the green paper is on cutting the benefits bill as further made clear in the 2 changes in the budget this week just days after it was published. If that didn't make it evident enough then the respective savings versus investment in helping disabled/sick people back into work surely puts it in black and white reality. They're even scrapping the very assessment which looks at disablement in terms of work so barriers can be understood better and will stop many disabled people being able to retain their carer (paid or unpaid) who might make working a reality.

Clear as day to anyone that has knowledge of the system rather than those swallowing the Government line.

You have no facts to state what you say. Please stop scaremongering. 

Green Papers are consultation documents produced by the Government. The aim of this document is to allow people both inside and outside Parliament to  give the department feedback on its policy or legislative proposals.

What they say is not set in stone. So anything can happen as this progresses.
There is nothing to say that at the end of the day. That they decide that upon reaching pension age, PIP will stop. In the effort to meet the proposed fiscal target on savings. Then make you apply for AA. 🤷‍♀️

Not wishing to scare anyone. Just simply pointing out that nothing is set in stone yet in terms of the changes proposed.

Auti

I read what everyone said and worry that there is an easy solution to the question. They will realise pensioners get PIP and can’t be made to work so they will make PIP stop at state pension age as other in work benefits do. 

Muttleythefrog

SURVIVEDCOVID said:

Muttleythefrog said:

I wouldn't rely on the headings.... PIP isn't even an out of work benefit (in fact neither is UC or ESA) and some of the people targeted (directly or indirectly) are working (including some as unpaid carers!)... the focus of the green paper is on cutting the benefits bill as further made clear in the 2 changes in the budget this week just days after it was published. If that didn't make it evident enough then the respective savings versus investment in helping disabled/sick people back into work surely puts it in black and white reality. They're even scrapping the very assessment which looks at disablement in terms of work so barriers can be understood better and will stop many disabled people being able to retain their carer (paid or unpaid) who might make working a reality.

But as you point to in this case they'd be unlikely affected by proposals.. and surely not if they are typically going to get a 4 point or more scoring DL descriptor. (I assume they're not partnered with someone of working age). It looks likely the uprating will annually continue although as was keenly reported a freeze was dropped at last minute. Lots of details missing in proposals makes it difficult to be certain about much and especially given many affected are subject to assessments of disablement which in themselves could affect future entitlement aside from any rule changes.

Hear what you say, but there is absolutely no indication in the Green Paper, or elsewhere, that pensioners on PIP will be impacted in any shape or form by the proposed welfare changes. The pre-existing 'light touch' review for pensioners is NOT a conventional re-assessment; far from it.

The only way that a pensioner who is already on PIP could be affected would be if they voluntarily notified the DWP that they had not received 4 points for any PIP Daily Living Needs descriptor, but instead had got at least 8 points based on an accumulation of 2 points. Anybody who did that may well be somewhat stupid. Mind you, even then the DWP may well take many years to even get back to them and that would be several years after the end of 2026 which is when any reforms may be introduced. 

My advice to pensioners is therefore to worry not. As I said previously you are NOT on Liz Kendall's radar and I doubt you ever will be. 

There's not really any indication in the green paper Carers will lose their entire income.... but clearly many would with the PIP proposals. There is nothing in the green paper excluding pensioners that I can see (and they could have done/said this!)... including in what you quote. I've consulted with my MP in private on the proposals and they are unaware of any special protections for pensioners (I asked regarding PIP but not other benefits). We also do not know how reassessments will work... we do know the government intends to increase focus on WCA re-assessments (possibly with a view to reduce those currently entitled before the changes).

I completely disagree with the 'radar' reference...not least since it is clear she is not driving the cuts... the chancellor is across departments which is why what Liz Kendall stood in parliament to propose was changed by the chancellor only days later due to economic forecasts. It is clear, and certainly in a complex benefits system, that indirect consequences would inevitably exist too.. I raised the carer issue as a good example... they actually could be more affected in terms of income proportion than most claimants the green paper addresses for cuts  directly as they could lose all their income.

And like I say... we cannot predict any further changes or amendments or reassessments (or their scheduling) and so while I think this pensioner won't likely be affected I don't have enough information about their claim or a crystal ball to say for sure. To quote my own Labour MP 'nothing is quite set in stone yet'... parliamentary processes and politics lay ahead... over years.

I do agree that someone of the Op's face value profile should probably not worry. But I also base this advice on assumption they have no working age partner. We know that mixed age couples exist. 

We're not here to scaremonger and as it happens the changes proposed can be pretty severe to new claimants (particularly regarding 'incapacity benefit' as we now seem to have evolved back to referencing) but most enquiries are coming from existing claimants as you might expect in places like here.. people who will likely see protections as set out in green paper like on rate of the 'health element' of UC... so a lot of reassurances can probably be provided with some caveats.

"The only way that a pensioner who is already on PIP could be affected would be if they voluntarily notified the DWP that they had not received 4 points for any PIP Daily Living Needs descriptor, but instead had got at least 8 points based on an accumulation of 2 points" - this on the other hand is scaremongering. The government so far have made it clear PIP rule changes when implemented regarding the need for 4 point (or more) scoring descriptor for DL (award) would only apply to new claims or reassessed claims after that point. (Further... forecasting of those affected supports this with the majority actually currently non claimants but who would (theoretically) be/have been  by the end of the period of measure). There is absolutely no indication at all that contacting the DWP to point out you do not have a 4 point descriptor relevant would trigger either loss of DL component or a reassessment.. (if the DWP wanted to do that I'm sure some simple IT exercise would achieve it far more effectively!).. so any pensioner who is concerned should not fear contacting the DWP (except for the fact they may be sat the best part of an hour waiting for an agent to speak to them who might give limited help).