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Landlord / Managing Agents Introduced a Private Parking Firm in Block of Flats

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  • h2g2
    h2g2 Posts: 241 Forumite
    Third Anniversary 100 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    fisherjim said:
    I personally would not use the word "regulations" they cannot impose regulations it makes these greedy muppets look too legitimate.
    Indeed, but worth mimicking the language from the lease where possible. My leasehold reserves, for the management company: "the right to regulate: to create and enforce reasonable regulations for the good management of the estate" (or words close to that).
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,702 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 12 March at 1:58AM
    PPCs have no place in residential car parks, ever, IMHO. The way they operate is so abhorrent and socially irresponsible that no residents should accept this crap.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Bobb12345
    Bobb12345 Posts: 76 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    PPCs have no place in residential car parks, ever, IMHO. The way they operate is so abhorrent and socially irresponsible that no residents should accept this crap.
    I need some further advice on this. The block of flats I live in has introduced parking controls (on a site with a barrier controlled entrance). They allege they were introduced prior to me buying the lease, a number of years ago and according to the building directors, leaseholders were consulted. The parking control company doesn't charge a fee. 

    Thus, the parking control company was introduced. However, there is nothing in the lease of my flat that states I need to display a parking permit in my vehicle, nor does it state that the parking control company will come round and issue an 'invoice' if the permit is not displayed. I was also told that the parking company effectively targets the residents and leaseholders because they were the ones causing the issues and not anyone from outside. How is this right? How can I be penalised for parking in my own parking space? 

    This issue has been raised with the building directors and they got very very angry when it was mentioned, someone accused me of 'quoting the magna carter'. I simply stated that there is nothing in the lease that states the permit needs displaying in my car for a parking space I already own. They also stated that other developments around have parking controls. I don't care about what is happening with other sites, I care about what is happening here and as far as I'm concerned this hasn't been done correctly. They also said that this sort of thing wouldn't be included in any lease. Surely this is wrong? 

    What can I do in order to get this parking control company removed from the site. The directors have said that they won't ask leaseholders if it's still needed (even though it was allegedly introduced 8 years ago). What else can be done? If nothing else can be done, then I will have to accept it, but I won't be happy. 
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,702 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 9 April at 2:35AM
    There's lots and lots of case law to support your position, such as:
    https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/news-and-cases/court-of-appeal-delivers-important-judgment-in-holland-park-dispute-as-to-parking-rights

    The parking control company doesn't charge a fee. 
    They never do. And you realise WHY this protection racket MO is the problem?

    Anyway as a first step:

    Ask to see the consultation and results from 8 years ago. Does it comply with the law? As stated in Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, in order to establish a right to impose unilateral terms which vary the terms of the lease, the freeholder (party to the lease wanting to impose something like this which varies or interferes with the lease rights) must have such variation approved by at least 75% of the leaseholders with no more than 10% objecting, or in the case of nine or less leaseholders, all but one must agree.

    If they are in breach then get together with other leaseholders and formally complain like this example that worked:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75773273/#Comment_75773273

    If that fails, raise a complaint with the Leaseholders Association.

    If that fails: see if one of the leaseholders (you?) has free legal cover as part of your home insurance? Very handy if you do. There are one or two posters currently suing their managing agents/parking firms, you know. One might be @h2g2 (trying to recall!).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Bobb12345
    Bobb12345 Posts: 76 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    There's lots and lots of case law to support your position, such as:
    https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/news-and-cases/court-of-appeal-delivers-important-judgment-in-holland-park-dispute-as-to-parking-rights

    The parking control company doesn't charge a fee. 
    They never do. And you realise WHY this protection racket MO is the problem?

    Anyway as a first step:

    Ask to see the consultation and results from 8 years ago. Does it comply with the law? As stated in Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, in order to establish a right to impose unilateral terms which vary the terms of the lease, the freeholder (party to the lease wanting to impose something like this which varies or interferes with the lease rights) must have such variation approved by at least 75% of the leaseholders with no more than 10% objecting, or in the case of nine or less leaseholders, all but one must agree.

    If they are in breach then get together with other leaseholders and formally complain like this example that worked:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75773273/#Comment_75773273

    If that fails, raise a complaint with the Leaseholders Association.

    If that fails: see if one of the leaseholders (you?) has free legal cover as part of your home insurance? Very handy if you do. There are one or two posters currently suing their managing agents/parking firms, you know. One might be @h2g2 (trying to recall!).
    Many thanks for getting back to me.

    After attending the Annual General Meeting last night between leaseholders, building directors and managing agent I don't think there is a huge amount of negativity against the parking company. (I bought it up as one of the points). Admittedly the meeting wasn't well attended, but those in attendance seemed to think that having the parking company there was good for the building and are happy to display badges in the cars. Obviously, I'm not but it appears I'm a lone voice. 

    I think there are in total about 50 flats in the building. If I was to take further steps, as I doubt the managing agent or building directors are going to assist me much further (I got accused of quoting the magna carter, although what that has to do with parking controls is beyond me). 

    I could, I guess, write to all the flats asking them directly what they think of the parking company. What would I put in such a letter to them? I'm just not really sure what to do, but if I'm the lone voice speaking out against these cowboys, there perhaps isn't much else I can do. Thank you again. 
  • h2g2
    h2g2 Posts: 241 Forumite
    Third Anniversary 100 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    One might be @h2g2 (trying to recall!).

    One of them is me, yes! My thread is here.

    I have the slight advantage of living at the place before parking controls were implemented, which means I have records that I raised concerns before ticketing started. Looking back over this thread, it looks like you are in a similar situation.

    One angle of attack might be to raise an objection with the parking company themselves, showing them your lease and deed, and asserting that you are the owner & occupier of your parking space and that you do not consent to them issuing parking charges on your land, and further that you do not consent to them offering a contract to park on your land.

    When I did this they opted my space out (which they have generally respected so far) but were clear it was a courtesy, and said they did have the legal right to enforce charges on me and my space.

    If that happens it might be worth escalating to their trade association (BPA or IPC), which won't get you anywhere but their response may contain some rope to hang them with later.

    After that you can raise a concern with the DLVA saying that you are the landowner, but someone else has contracted a PPC to "manage" your land without your consent. Ask them to withhold keeper details for charges on that land unless they can prove they have consent from the landowner to operate.

    Also ask them to investigate a breach of Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4, and a breach of the shared code of conduct that forms part of the KADOE contract. If you took the step of complaining to the IPC / BPA you can also raise that you complained to them as well and that they refused to enforce a substantial part of the code of conduct and endorsed their member breaching the law as well.

    If all else fails, I went to Constestor Legal, and paid £2500 (which we anticipate winning back) to use the court system to kick them out. Progress is on its way.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,702 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 9 April at 12:54PM
    Bobb12345 said:
    There's lots and lots of case law to support your position, such as:
    https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/news-and-cases/court-of-appeal-delivers-important-judgment-in-holland-park-dispute-as-to-parking-rights

    The parking control company doesn't charge a fee. 
    They never do. And you realise WHY this protection racket MO is the problem?

    Anyway as a first step:

    Ask to see the consultation and results from 8 years ago. Does it comply with the law? As stated in Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, in order to establish a right to impose unilateral terms which vary the terms of the lease, the freeholder (party to the lease wanting to impose something like this which varies or interferes with the lease rights) must have such variation approved by at least 75% of the leaseholders with no more than 10% objecting, or in the case of nine or less leaseholders, all but one must agree.

    If they are in breach then get together with other leaseholders and formally complain like this example that worked:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75773273/#Comment_75773273

    If that fails, raise a complaint with the Leaseholders Association.

    If that fails: see if one of the leaseholders (you?) has free legal cover as part of your home insurance? Very handy if you do. There are one or two posters currently suing their managing agents/parking firms, you know. One might be @h2g2 (trying to recall!).
    Many thanks for getting back to me.

    After attending the Annual General Meeting last night between leaseholders, building directors and managing agent I don't think there is a huge amount of negativity against the parking company. (I bought it up as one of the points). Admittedly the meeting wasn't well attended, but those in attendance seemed to think that having the parking company there was good for the building and are happy to display badges in the cars. Obviously, I'm not but it appears I'm a lone voice. 

    I think there are in total about 50 flats in the building. If I was to take further steps, as I doubt the managing agent or building directors are going to assist me much further (I got accused of quoting the magna carter, although what that has to do with parking controls is beyond me). 

    I could, I guess, write to all the flats asking them directly what they think of the parking company. What would I put in such a letter to them? I'm just not really sure what to do, but if I'm the lone voice speaking out against these cowboys, there perhaps isn't much else I can do. Thank you again. 
    But the first step I suggested is what to do first. Ask to see the vote numbers & records about what was asked of whom (how many were consulted) and the response rate. Chances are the 'vote' was unlawful in which case you then take it to the Leaseholders Association.

    None of that requires other leaseholders to be on board. You could expose and unpick the decision from 8 years ago as unlawful just by getting hold of the records of that supposed 'vote'.

    What I suspect they did was a show of hands at an AGM. But with 50 flats they'd need a complete survey with at least 75% consenting and no more than 10% objecting.

    I'm telling you they didn't do it right.

    I'm also telling you that more than 10% of the leaseholders will be with you if you ask them. If you put a letter in every door pointing out that this variation of the lease was unlawful (and that by operating your land as a commercial protection racket free, no wonder residents and visitors are being targeted with £100 PCNs) I am betting that you'll get at least ten agreeing with you and you only need five to kill off a proper vote, if the MA now tries that.

    Tell the leaseholders that the unsolicited business being run also means the PPC is offering their spaces for £100 per day. Had they realised this? Operations like this can wreck flat saleability & prices. Lots of people eill never even look at a flat with a PPC attacking residents' right to peaceful enjoyment. I'd never even view a flat with a PPC in the car park. I'm far from alone.

    Find out about that vote then send a letter through every door. Read other threads such as h2g2's example and the successful one I linked that got PCM removed immediately after the leaseholders wrote to the MA (example letter is right there).

    All you need to know is there and on other threads like it. Even how to word the letter to other leaseholders. This is tried & tested. We have seen this hundreds/thousands of times over the years here.

    Did you read the case law I linked? The recent Duchess of Bedford case? The residents there removed the parking restrictions after being wrongly inflicted with an aggressive ticketing 'scheme' for over 15 or 20 years, IIRC.

    Gather contact details of like-minded leaseholders. Then decide next steps together, to kick out the PPC.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Bobb12345
    Bobb12345 Posts: 76 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    Bobb12345 said:
    There's lots and lots of case law to support your position, such as:
    https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/news-and-cases/court-of-appeal-delivers-important-judgment-in-holland-park-dispute-as-to-parking-rights

    The parking control company doesn't charge a fee. 
    They never do. And you realise WHY this protection racket MO is the problem?

    Anyway as a first step:

    Ask to see the consultation and results from 8 years ago. Does it comply with the law? As stated in Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, in order to establish a right to impose unilateral terms which vary the terms of the lease, the freeholder (party to the lease wanting to impose something like this which varies or interferes with the lease rights) must have such variation approved by at least 75% of the leaseholders with no more than 10% objecting, or in the case of nine or less leaseholders, all but one must agree.

    If they are in breach then get together with other leaseholders and formally complain like this example that worked:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75773273/#Comment_75773273

    If that fails, raise a complaint with the Leaseholders Association.

    If that fails: see if one of the leaseholders (you?) has free legal cover as part of your home insurance? Very handy if you do. There are one or two posters currently suing their managing agents/parking firms, you know. One might be @h2g2 (trying to recall!).
    Many thanks for getting back to me.

    After attending the Annual General Meeting last night between leaseholders, building directors and managing agent I don't think there is a huge amount of negativity against the parking company. (I bought it up as one of the points). Admittedly the meeting wasn't well attended, but those in attendance seemed to think that having the parking company there was good for the building and are happy to display badges in the cars. Obviously, I'm not but it appears I'm a lone voice. 

    I think there are in total about 50 flats in the building. If I was to take further steps, as I doubt the managing agent or building directors are going to assist me much further (I got accused of quoting the magna carter, although what that has to do with parking controls is beyond me). 

    I could, I guess, write to all the flats asking them directly what they think of the parking company. What would I put in such a letter to them? I'm just not really sure what to do, but if I'm the lone voice speaking out against these cowboys, there perhaps isn't much else I can do. Thank you again. 
    But the first step I suggested is what to do first. Ask to see the vote numbers & records about what was asked of whom (how many were consulted) and the response rate. Chances are the 'vote' was unlawful in which case you then take it to the Leaseholders Association.

    None of that requires other leaseholders to be on board. You could expose and unpick the decision from 8 years ago as unlawful just by getting hold of the records of that supposed 'vote'.

    What I suspect they did was a show of hands at an AGM. But with 50 flats they'd need a complete survey with at least 75% consenting and no more than 10% objecting.

    I'm telling you they didn't do it right.

    I'm also telling you that more than 10% of the leaseholders will be with you if you ask them. If you put a letter in every door pointing out that this variation of the lease was unlawful (and that by operating your land as a commercial protection racket free, no wonder residents and visitors are being targeted with £100 PCNs) I am betting that you'll get at least ten agreeing with you and you only need five to kill off a proper vote, if the MA now tries that.

    Tell the leaseholders that the unsolicited business being run also means the PPC is offering their spaces for £100 per day. Had they realised this? Operations like this can wreck flat saleability & prices. Lots of people eill never even look at a flat with a PPC attacking residents' right to peaceful enjoyment. I'd never even view a flat with a PPC in the car park. I'm far from alone.

    Find out about that vote then send a letter through every door. Read other threads such as h2g2's example and the successful one I linked that got PCM removed immediately after the leaseholders wrote to the MA (example letter is right there).

    All you need to know is there and on other threads like it. Even how to word the letter to other leaseholders. This is tried & tested. We have seen this hundreds/thousands of times over the years here.

    Did you read the case law I linked? The recent Duchess of Bedford case? The residents there removed the parking restrictions after being wrongly inflicted with an aggressive ticketing 'scheme' for over 15 or 20 years, IIRC.

    Gather contact details of like-minded leaseholders. Then decide next steps together, to kick out the PPC.
    Many thanks for this. I will ask the Property Management Company to contact the Building Diretors for the information on the vote, as a first step. The Building Directors swore at me the last time I bought up what happened, and although they say Leaseholders were consulted, they didn't explain why. We didn't get that far, as they just started shouting that I bought up parking again. 

    I'll get that information, then will contact the Leaseholders Association, and go from there. I don't have the time for a protracted legal fight or anything like that, I work long hours, and don't have the spare energy to put too much into this. If I was retired, I would. Anyways, I really appreciate the help and advice. I'll ask the question and go from there. Many thanks again. 
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