Selling in France help

PinkRose1983

I’m clueless and need advice. (I feel like my mum is being dishonest or not entirely truthful)

My parents bought a property in France

gm0

There is a complicated set of things going on here.  And nobody here can comment in detail.   No established facts.  So strategy only.

As an analogy - in the UK - a spouse can have a lifetime interest (right to live in) a specific property which is in fact left to the children of that marriage.  Widow/er can stay so are housed.  But can't move on without more legal steps involving the children.   This prevents a widow/er remarrying after the first death then dying and the property of that marriage all going to 2nd marriage partner - who dies and leaves the lot to their kids and nothing to those of the first marriage in their will.  Because the first marriage kids got the house the first time.  This is prevented.  The right to occupy doesn't allow the move of the value to 2nd marriage spouse for them to redirect.  1st marriage kids own the asset already.  Some couples do this.  Some trust their partner not to be silly after they are dead and don't bother.

So a concept of "lifetime interest" exists - here.  I have precisely ZERO idea how the french system allows for this same problem and solves it conceptually - multi-family and control after first death but ALSO provide for spouse. French law, will structure and title registration.  But *if* it does something conceptually similar with different flows and forms - then no doubt there are notarised filings associated both with doing what is needed to set it up before hand and dealing with it later - 2nd death, changing it later when a property is sold.

Your father's will(s) are a clue. As is whatever it is that is being done now. 

If you are a beneficiary of her new will being drafted (without dad). And the paperwork and reference for beneficiary is for that. Well done her.  It's just proving who you are to the french notary.  Hard ID checking to put you in the notarised French will.

Or if you are getting money from the sale (beneficiary of that).  There is more complexity coming from what your dad did earlier. Involving you in the sale

If she owned the house outright and you had no financial or legal interest - she would not need to involve you formally in a sale unless there is some wrinkle about tagging/release from descendents/dependents in the french system.  Can't help with that aspect.  My strong suspicion is that there will be simple and complex options and tax efficient and inefficient ways to deal with it that apply to different values of property.

Option A

You can go and seek (french law aware) professional help independent of your mother. Which will ALSO require an honest (difficult) conversation with your mother that - yes you will in principle be helpful and co-operate but you want to know and understand what is happening and to have seen papers implementing it which involve you before signing anything further associated with you.  Knowing who the notary is and where wills are now kept and current copies circulated is something that should be considered as well - in case of the random accident and the in flight transaction becoming a problem to you all.

Option B

You don't look for help. Or spend money on french legal support - and just go along with it. 

Provide relevant info as asked.  And perhaps you find that the property is sold and she moves on.  And her will includes you or it doesn't. And is changed later if it does currently or it isn't.  Maybe she is unraveling something your dad did in a way to suit her needs now. And it is legitimate - or maybe it's a bit dodgy - but you don't mind either way having no expectations about it. 

A notary/conveyancer is doing french stuff in a french manner and you are not in possession of all or indeed any of the facts.  Or she may be doing things you don't know about - with tax consequences for her - or perhaps even for you - as yet undiscovered - and you are being drawn into it further via filings and dispersal of sale proceeds.  Affairs in france to which your name and ID are being attached.  It cannot be said to be completely risk free as you don't know what's happening - which may be coming from the best of intentions. 

Can't say anything more really.

Accept risk go with the flow.  Or get professional help at cost and examine what is happening that involves you - necessary difficult conversations with family notwithstanding. 

If she is fuzzy on what her agents and notary are doing on her behalf then of course second hand it may not come across well and she may be embarrassed about not knowing and find admitting that difficult also.

gm0

Missed this

>Mum had a bit of a panic that the property would be sold and the money would go to us three offspring and she’d be >left with nothing

This suggests the original will was this or she did not know (overly private dad).
And it was intended at one time to be your house (with siblings).  Maybe it still is.

What your dad did or did not change before he died matters.  And the actual final will as executed is definitive. 

Whatever 2 of 3 of you intend by way of doing the right thing to help her out.  Formally something has happened about your dad's death.  It's either *your* house she is selling, or its not, or it's some halfway house a la francais (per my post above) as they created.  This is what you need to know.

This will be painful if one of three "owners" of the house are estranged and unresponsive to her to get necessary signoffs.  There are processes to deal with this but difficult, expensive and long winded if like the ones here.

Also if you *are* going to receive proceeds from a sale the conveyancer will ultimately need bank details 1) that they are allowed to use (money laundering).  And can send to - payment system/destination.  At your end which can receive euros. And ideally hold them.   You don't particularly want a euro cheque turning up. And not be robbed by a UK bank turning euros into sterling charging an uncapped large % fee.  Particularly if you will be helping mum - in euros later.  That could lose you a lot of money going across the channel twice. Avoid.  If you are receiving any significant proceeds of sale get over to banking/savings forum and look into the best multi-currency options. 

sheramber

It sounds like your mother needs help to understand what is happening.

Can you get a copy of your father's will to see exactly what it says and confirm it is valid.

Otherwise you are working in the dark.

Being a benificiary of your mother's will shouldn't affect what she does with the house if she owns it now.  If she sells the house she will no longer have the French property so her  French will will be void and should be destroyed.

Perhaps  your father's will says something different or is not valid and the house reverted to the children.

PinkRose1983

sheramber said:

It sounds like your mother needs help to understand what is happening.

Can you get a copy of your father's will to see exactly what it says and confirm it is valid.

Otherwise you are working in the dark.

Being a benificiary of your mother's will shouldn't affect what she does with the house if she owns it now.  If she sells the house she will no longer have the French property so her  French will will be void and should be destroyed.

Perhaps  your father's will says something different or is not valid and the house reverted to the children.

It’s hard to say as I can now see that my mum isn’t being completely honest with me, as I thought. Dad didn’t have a British will, we tried to get a solicitor out to him shortly before he died and it was a mad panic trying to get one, mum was really stressing about it and I was then ringing around trying to get somebody out as she “had too much too cope with”. In the end we couldn’t get anyone out in time but mum got a will kit from Amazon, and dad was clear he wanted everything left to mum and managed to sign it.

Up until dad died they’d always told us it they’d had it written in the French deeds that the house would be left to mum, but there’d just lots of little things that are not adding up. I don’t want to benefit from the sale as I know my dad wanted it all to go to mum he was very clear about that. He wanted her to sell everything and enjoy the rest of her life.  I question if there even is a French will, she just always refers to it now as “MY French will”. Something just isn’t right but I’m not sure what 

beckstar1975

OP - this is no help to you but I am in a similar situation with my mum and step dad owning a house in France - her dying and me and my half brother (their child) inheriting her share automatically - she didn't have a Will, French or otherwise but I understand it's v v difficult to overcome the French rules of inheritance. My brother and I will have to go to France to sign ownership and I genuinely have no idea what it means longer term. I suggest you look on one of the ex pat forums/websites (there's Connexion and The Local) as they have quite a lot on inheritance which may help.

Good luck

PinkRose1983

beckstar1975 said:

OP - this is no help to you but I am in a similar situation with my mum and step dad owning a house in France - her dying and me and my half brother (their child) inheriting her share automatically - she didn't have a Will, French or otherwise but I understand it's v v difficult to overcome the French rules of inheritance. My brother and I will have to go to France to sign ownership and I genuinely have no idea what it means longer term. I suggest you look on one of the ex pat forums/websites (there's Connexion and The Local) as they have quite a lot on inheritance which may help.

Good luck

Thankyou! I am reluctant to post anywhere where mum might see it, it’s difficult as I don’t really know if they had a will or not as I don’t think mum is being entirely honest with me. I genuinely don’t want any of the money, but i am reluctant to be signing documents when I don’t know what they are and it’s tricky when I don’t always have the balls to ask as I don’t want to rock the boat. Mum is a difficult person at the best of times.
We’ve already been out to France sacrificing our family holiday to help her get the property in a saleable condition, with no thanks or appreciation, and I don’t want to be having to go out again. 

It’s so frustrating when they purchased a property abroad to now have to pick up the pieces which I’m sure you understand right now, what a nightmare! 

eddddy

French inheritance laws are very different from UK inheritance laws.

It's a while since I was involved with this, and I don't claim to be an expert - but here are a few comments based on what I can recall. In simple terms...

• By default, French Inheritance law will override whatever is written in a will

• But you can put "special wording" in a will saying that you want UK laws to apply  

• That "special wording" must be present in the will before the death, it cannot be added retrospectively after the death

• French Inheritance law specifies the percentage of the estate that must go to each child of the deceased

• BUT... in spite of that, the spouse has the right to live in the house for the rest of their life, and have the use of any money for the rest of their life

• When the spouse dies - the children get the property and money they were originally due. (But if the spouse has spent some/all of the money in the meantime, that's just bad luck for the children.)

 
However, every child has to sign documents agreeing to all the above (and to make them aware of what they will be due when the spouse dies).

If one or more of the children refuses to sign, the estate is in limbo, and nothing can be distributed.


(I'm told that there are many properties in France that end up abandoned and falling down, because children refuse to sign the docs due to family feuds. So the properties just sit there in limbo 'forever'.)


But my recollections might not be 100% accurate, and/or French laws might have changed.

PinkRose1983

eddddy said:

French inheritance laws are very different from UK inheritance laws.

It's a while since I was involved with this, and I don't claim to be an expert - but here are a few comments based on what I can recall. In simple terms...

• By default, French Inheritance law will override whatever is written in a will

• But you can put "special wording" in a will saying that you want UK laws to apply  

• That "special wording" must be present in the will before the death, it cannot be added retrospectively after the death

• French Inheritance law specifies the percentage of the estate that must go to each child of the deceased

• BUT... in spite of that, the spouse has the right to live in the house for the rest of their life, and have the use of any money for the rest of their life

• When the spouse dies - the children get the property and money they were originally due. (But if the spouse has spent some/all of the money in the meantime, that's just bad luck for the children.)

 
However, every child has to sign documents agreeing to all the above (and to make them aware of what they will be due when the spouse dies).

If one or more of the children refuses to sign, the estate is in limbo, and nothing can be distributed.


(I'm told that there are many properties in France that end up abandoned and falling down, because children refuse to sign the docs due to family feuds. So the properties just sit there in limbo 'forever'.)


But my recollections might not be 100% accurate, and/or French laws might have changed.

Thankyou this is helpful but also adds to my confusion as yesterday my mum messaged me and said “Also the solicitor has managed to get round the *siblings name” issue xx” (sibling that is refusing to sign any paperwork) 

eddddy

PinkRose1983 said:

Thankyou this is helpful but also adds to my confusion as yesterday my mum messaged me and said “Also the solicitor has managed to get round the *siblings name” issue xx” (sibling that is refusing to sign any paperwork) 

That's good news.

My knowledge is from some years ago - so the law may have changed, and/or maybe what I was told wasn't 100% accurate.

Just60

If you are on facebook, I'd suggest you join a group called "Strictly Fiscal France" where you will be able to search for previous posts that may be relevant and will be able to view the comprehensive guides the group maintains on issues such as inheritance.  You will be able to get a good understanding of the French rules without having to discuss your particular position.