Rejected Section 21 at the Court by the Judge

Olinda99

Which is all a moot point anyway because the upcoming RRB will abolish section 21 and everyone will have to rely on S8 and this would include additional grounds such as wanting to move back into the property or wanting to sell the property so the OP should be able to use these

AskAsk

Olinda99 said:

Which is all a moot point anyway because the upcoming RRB will abolish section 21 and everyone will have to rely on S8 and this would include additional grounds such as wanting to move back into the property or wanting to sell the property so the OP should be able to use these

when is that coming?

grumpy_codger

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3764

AI says "expected to become law in 2025"

sirajuddin

pinkshoes said:

sirajuddin said:

gazfocus said:

Have you had any EICR done since 2015 as you should be having that done every 5 years. 

Your best bet is to make sure you get a GSC done and a new EICR if you’ve not got a valid one (within last 5 years) plus go through the Section21 checklist, then try section 21 again once you’re confident all your documents are in order. 

Hi

Yes I do have now a valid EICR, GSC, plus all other required documents to covered section 21 service period but it was rejected because I failed to provide GSC for the beginning of the original tenancy. 

Ouch. Harsh ruling. So in theory, that means that you cannot EVER evict the tenant unless they default on their rent payments so an S8 can be issued instead??

Why do you want/need the tenant out?

If you need to sell the property, then you could sell it with a tenant in situ?

If the tenant has not paid their rent, then issue an S8.

Your only other option is to bribe the tenant, but you'd need to put a tempting time limit on it e.g. "Dear tenant. If you move out within 28 days (by XXXX date), I will pay you £2000 to cover the inconvenience of having to move. If you do not wish to move, then I am happy to continue the tenancy and no further financial incentive will be offered after this date."

Other options - is the rent in line with other market rents? If not, make sure it is. If you're stuck with this tenant, you might as well make sure you're getting maximum rent. 

I have now  found the original GSC covering beginning the tenancy back in Nov 2015-  what can I do now please

sirajuddin

anselld said:

Lack of EICR does not automatically invalidate s21 unless, for example, it causes a breach of licensing conditions in a licenceable property, hmo, etc.

This would suggest the failure to provide a GSC at the outset cannot be rectified unless it was done and the certificate lost....

... which leaves very few options ...

(1) find the original certificate

(2) offer some financial inducement to leave

(3) wait until there is an opportunity to use s8

Now I have found the GSC which cover the original tenancy started back in Nov 2015- now what do I do next please.

RHemmings

Section62 said:

Bookworm105 said:

pinkshoes said:
Ouch. Harsh ruling. So in theory, that means that you cannot EVER evict the tenant unless they default on their rent payments so an S8 can be issued instead??

matter of opinion
I would imagine judges take a dim view of people claiming:  "I complied with the law from this date, so ignore the fact I didn't from an earlier date"

unlikely to be well received in court as a plea

I would be of the opinion that continuous compliance with the law is the very bedrock of the rule of law.

In other situations there would be a 'balance of probabilities' test, or de minimis would be applied.  Because at the end of the day what does the failure (if there was one) to obtain/provide a GSC 10 years ago have to do with whether one party to a contract should be able to bring that contract to an end now?

I think the situations are different if the tenant is claiming that there was no GSC at the start of the tenancy, versus if both the tenant and the landlord don't know. In the former case, the tenant's testimony at court is some evidence that there was none, and if the landlord can't produce one then in my mind the balance of probabalities would be to conclude that there wasn't. (I am not a judge nor a lawyer). But, if neither the tenant nor landlord know, then ... I don't think there's evidence either way. 

Jude57

RHemmings said:

Section62 said:

Bookworm105 said:

pinkshoes said:
Ouch. Harsh ruling. So in theory, that means that you cannot EVER evict the tenant unless they default on their rent payments so an S8 can be issued instead??

matter of opinion
I would imagine judges take a dim view of people claiming:  "I complied with the law from this date, so ignore the fact I didn't from an earlier date"

unlikely to be well received in court as a plea

I would be of the opinion that continuous compliance with the law is the very bedrock of the rule of law.

In other situations there would be a 'balance of probabilities' test, or de minimis would be applied.  Because at the end of the day what does the failure (if there was one) to obtain/provide a GSC 10 years ago have to do with whether one party to a contract should be able to bring that contract to an end now?

I think the situations are different if the tenant is claiming that there was no GSC at the start of the tenancy, versus if both the tenant and the landlord don't know. In the former case, the tenant's testimony at court is some evidence that there was none, and if the landlord can't produce one then in my mind the balance of probabalities would be to conclude that there wasn't. (I am not a judge nor a lawyer). But, if neither the tenant nor landlord know, then ... I don't think there's evidence either way. 

You have it right. In equity cases, Judges have wide discretion but the general attitude is that landlords have legal obligations and as businessmen/women, they are held to those obligations whereas a lay tenant, while also having legal obligations, is excused from compliance with anything much more than paying rent on time and not trashing the property. 

newsgroupmonkey_

sirajuddin said:

anselld said:

Lack of EICR does not automatically invalidate s21 unless, for example, it causes a breach of licensing conditions in a licenceable property, hmo, etc.

This would suggest the failure to provide a GSC at the outset cannot be rectified unless it was done and the certificate lost....

... which leaves very few options ...

(1) find the original certificate

(2) offer some financial inducement to leave

(3) wait until there is an opportunity to use s8

Now I have found the GSC which cover the original tenancy started back in Nov 2015- now what do I do next please.

Apply back to the court I guess?

it's a good question. At least you know you can evict them.

AskAsk

sirajuddin said:

anselld said:

Lack of EICR does not automatically invalidate s21 unless, for example, it causes a breach of licensing conditions in a licenceable property, hmo, etc.

This would suggest the failure to provide a GSC at the outset cannot be rectified unless it was done and the certificate lost....

... which leaves very few options ...

(1) find the original certificate

(2) offer some financial inducement to leave

(3) wait until there is an opportunity to use s8

Now I have found the GSC which cover the original tenancy started back in Nov 2015- now what do I do next please.

as someone had said, may be contact the court and ask if you can send in the required documents as you have found them so the S21 can be considered?

pinkshoes

sirajuddin said:

anselld said:

Lack of EICR does not automatically invalidate s21 unless, for example, it causes a breach of licensing conditions in a licenceable property, hmo, etc.

This would suggest the failure to provide a GSC at the outset cannot be rectified unless it was done and the certificate lost....

... which leaves very few options ...

(1) find the original certificate

(2) offer some financial inducement to leave

(3) wait until there is an opportunity to use s8

Now I have found the GSC which cover the original tenancy started back in Nov 2015- now what do I do next please.

Contact the court, and say you DO have required paperwork that they needed for the S21, and ask if it is now possible to have the S21 eviction granted, or another hearing date. Worst case scenario is that you'll have to start the S21 all over again, but hopefully the court will have some common sense and allow the original S21 application to continue.