Care Home, Financial Assessment and reasonability?

6022tivo

Myself and my Brother have POA for my mother who suffered a massive stroke a few years ago. 

The only thing to leave my mother's bank accounts for the last three years is the fees for the care home. Her bank statements only have the homes direct debits for the home costs. (No bills, no other transactions) 

It is now getting close to the 23k threshold and we have to do a financial assessment. 

Although we have always provided toiletries, presents for her grandkids and costs for personal things and hair cutting from our own money (My brother and I) , surly there's got to be an allowance for the assessment for these things from her money via our poa?? 

What do the council allow?? Is there a guideline rough cost? 

We've always put our own £50 in a card for her two grandchildren at Christmas and Birthdays?? But going forward with the assessment? Do the council have a fair allowance for these sort of things? Also Personal care? 


I've previously been told by previous advice that as this home is a little more expensive (was not our choice) than the cheapest in the authority the top up does not need to be found by the family as she has been told by the councils social services that she can't be moved for her welfare (She's not moved out of her bed for 3 years). I'm not sure how to push that with the council. 

BTW. This is not a greedy family type post. She has spent all her savings on this home she hates over the last 3 years as she was so independent, but it's a rough card to be dealt at the end of her time. But as we are down to the last 23k, we need to deal with the council again which I imagine may be hard work. 

Thanks on advance during this terrible stressful time. 

6022tivo

Following of from a thread about care home and financial assesments I've previously posted...

My mother who had a massive stroke 3 years ago has self funded her care home via myself as POA. 

She has her real home that's excluded for the coming up financial assessment. 

Her son who is disabled lives there and always has. 
The house for her insurance has to be "kept in reasonable structural condition" 

We have some joists and floorboards rotting and collapsing at the rear. 

Other costs for her house we have always paid from our own funds (Council Tax, Bills etc) 

Would using some of her remaining savings to maintain her house be potentially Deprivation of assets? 
Could this lead to an issue? 

Could the council state as this is her home, it should be providing a rental income even though the only resident is her disabled son who has always lived there and pays all the bills etc?? 

elsien

The house is disregarded so no one is going to say it should be providing rental income.

This is only a guess, but I would say that carrying out essential repairs would be acceptable. Althougj I have to say the disabled son is not paying her bills for  council tax and utilities etc, he’s paying his own.

ETA - having seen your other thread, she is approaching the 23K limit so there may be queries as to why these maintenance issues are only needed now? And you need to be very careful to show that the work is necessary.

elsien

This is a duplicate thread. Please can you just post in one place as per the forum rules. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6593323/spending-money-vs-deprivation-of-assets

The information you’ve posted from age UK is not entirely accurate. Any third-party top of is voluntary and there is no obligation on anyone to pay it.  It depends how much more expensive the fees are than the local authority rate - if they are quite close the care home sometimes comes to an arrangement to accept less. But if there is an equivalent cheaper home that can be evidenced to meet her needs then the local authority can move her. So it’s about what her needs are, and why it is in her best interest to stay where she is. You say the local authority have already told you it’s in her best interest to stay put, so they will have to pay the top up if that is accurate.

I have no idea what you’re talking about when you talk about her money from your pot. Her money is her money. Saying that you’ve paid for things for her if it’s from from her own money is confusing things. If you mean you’ve paid it as power-of-attorney then it’s still her money and effectively she is still paying it herself. Which means that a pattern of spending has been established, so unless it’s silly amount amounts of money it’s not going to be questioned. 

The financial assessment is not going to scrutinise the odd £50 birthday present. It will look at her assets as a whole and then between the 14 and the 23 she will pay a tariff towards  her own care. 

Once it gets down to 14 K she will just be left with her £30 or whatever it is personal allowance from her income.

You’re aware that once she’s no longer self funding any attendance allowance will stop so you need to inform DWP of that? 

QrizB

elsien said:

I have no idea what you’re talking about when you talk about her money from your pot. Her money is her money. Saying that you’ve paid for things for her if it’s from from her own money is confusing things. If you mean you’ve paid it as power-of-attorney then it’s still her money and effectively she is still paying it herself.

While it's not the clearest, I think the OP is saying that they (OP and brother) have paid for these things out of their own (OP and brother's) funds, not using their mother's money under their PoA.

I'm assuming that when they say they have "POI" they mean Power of Attorney? Unless POI is soemthing else, besides a performance art?

elsien

Okay, my apologies if I have misread it. But I’m still unsure what sort of reasonable allowance the OP asking about outside of the personal allowance that everyone is left with. 

Which is what everyone who isn’t a self funder has  live on with regard to presents, Chiropody, et cetera. Care homes tend to provide basic toiletries so if people want something different that’s when they start paying for their own. 

But between the 23 and the 14 K as long as any spending is reasonable there is no reason she can’t carry on spending as she has been. While it’s very generous of you, I don’t know why you and your brother have been using your own money to pay for some of the expenditure unless you just wanted to. 

elsien

if you’ve spoken to age UK, I presume you’ve already seen this back sheet, but posting it again just in case,
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/factsheets/fs10_paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf

Keep_pedalling

This is a difficult one, although it is her house she is not going to benefit from any work carried out on it so it could be argued that it is not in her best interest for her attorney to spend any of her savings on it.

Looking forwards, what happens to the house on your mother’s passing? If your brother is going to left the house or given a life time interest in it? if he has how will ongoing maintenance be financed?

6022tivo

elsien said:

This is only a guess, but I would say that carrying out essential repairs would be acceptable. Althougj I have to say the disabled son is not paying her bills for  council tax and utilities etc, he’s paying his own.

ETA - having seen your other thread, she is approaching the 23K limit so there may be queries as to why these maintenance issues are only needed now? And you need to be very careful to show that the work is necessary.

Thanks for the reply. 
Correct, her son is paying his own way for all the running of his mothers house. Including House insurance etc. 

The maintenance issues have been delayed because of the trauma of it all. When she was sent to the home, we were told she had a couple of weeks to live, then maybe a few months, now it's been three years of her stuck. 
There's no agenda to shift money for genuine building works, and it would be audited because we take the role of her POA with care. 

6022tivo

elsien said:

This is a duplicate thread. Please can you just post in one place as per the forum rules. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6593323/spending-money-vs-deprivation-of-assets

The information you’ve posted from age UK is not entirely accurate. Any third-party top of is voluntary and there is no obligation on anyone to pay it.  It depends how much more expensive the fees are than the local authority rate - if they are quite close the care home sometimes comes to an arrangement to accept less. But if there is an equivalent cheaper home that can be evidenced to meet her needs then the local authority can move her. So it’s about what her needs are, and why it is in her best interest to stay where she is. You say the local authority have already told you it’s in her best interest to stay put, so they will have to pay the top up if that is accurate.

I have no idea what you’re talking about when you talk about her money from your pot. Her money is her money. Saying that you’ve paid for things for her if it’s from from her own money is confusing things. If you mean you’ve paid it as power-of-attorney then it’s still her money and effectively she is still paying it herself. Which means that a pattern of spending has been established, so unless it’s silly amount amounts of money it’s not going to be questioned. 

The financial assessment is not going to scrutinise the odd £50 birthday present. It will look at her assets as a whole and then between the 14 and the 23 she will pay a tariff towards  her own care. 

Once it gets down to 14 K she will just be left with her £30 or whatever it is personal allowance from her income.

You’re aware that once she’s no longer self funding any attendance allowance will stop so you need to inform DWP of that? 

I was trying to keep the threads separate as the main focus is the Financial Assessment (this thread) and what allowances she is allowed for personal things? 
I think you have answered that as £30?? Is that a week/month? 
For personal things, Washing, Toothpastes, Hair Cuts, maybe flowers from time to time? 

I've removed the AGEUK mention as it was from a great phone call with them (Can't recommend them as a charity enough). 

I think she does get AA, so many thanks for that. When the financial assessment starts, we have to exempt that from the assessment, and get it stopped with the DWP at that same time. 

6022tivo

Keep_pedalling said:

This is a difficult one, although it is her house she is not going to benefit from any work carried out on it so it could be argued that it is not in her best interest for her attorney to spend any of her savings on it.

Looking forwards, what happens to the house on your mother’s passing? If your brother is going to left the house or given a life time interest in it? if he has how will ongoing maintenance be financed?

Yes. Many thanks for saying it's tricky. 

I agree she will not benefit from the work carried out on the house. 
But as per the terms of her house insurance, it's technically invalid as the house is not in a fit state of repair. 

A property in a good state of repair is one without structural problems. Your property is not considered to be in a good state of repair if it has dry rot, rot or infestation requiring timber or window replacement, damp, roof or chimney stack damage, faulty wiring or incomplete construction.

As POA for her affairs I feel we are neglecting her home. 

The house will pass to myself and my brother. He will continue to live there and my share will have to be brought out by him, or some sort of partial ownership of some sort (Not really looked into it).