Flat to Flat Leak issue

Sotonsaddler10

Hi, 
New to the chat forum, wondered if anyone could provide any advice as my head is spinning on this one. 

I have a top floor flat in a leasehold building. Recently the flat below reported a leak via their landlord (which are a property company) coming into their bathroom. In response to this we got a leak detection company out to assess the cause. They determined that the cause of the leak was the waste / soil pipe running through the concrete pad between the flats. This pipe serves our flat only. 
There is no leak at pipe point within our flat but the leak is seeping up through the concrete and has caused very minor damage on our laminate. The main damage is in the flat below where the bathroom ceiling has fallen through, with drips coming from the concrete pad into their bath. 

My expectation is the flat below will have their property repaired through their contents insurance. However in terms of resolving the issue of the leak the detection company suggested that it would effectively require our bathroom to be ripped out, the concrete pad dug into, the pipe repaired and then everything rebuilt. Am I wrong in assuming buildings insurance (owned by the leaseholder for the building) should cover the cost of doing this? Potentially everything but physically repairing the actual pipe. 

Appreciate any guidance!!! A quite stressful situation. 

[Deleted User]

Exactly the same happened to me back when I owned an apartment. Identical scenario except for it was below the kitchen, not the bathroom. I allowed the contractors to enter the apartment to inspect whatever they needed to. Then, the management company contacted me saying that although the leak was not on my property, the contractors would need to rip out the kitchen. They didn't bother speaking to me directly, or even asking. I replied saying that not only would they not rip out my kitchen, they would not gain access to my apartment under any circumstances whatsoever, and if my property was in any way affected, or my water turned off without my consent, I would sue them. Funnily enough, the contractors suddenly found a way of repairing the leak without setting foot on my property.

ThisIsWeird

Sotonsaddler10 said:

Hi, 
New to the chat forum, wondered if anyone could provide any advice as my head is spinning on this one. 

I have a top floor flat in a leasehold building. Recently the flat below reported a leak via their landlord (which are a property company) coming into their bathroom. In response to this we got a leak detection company out to assess the cause. They determined that the cause of the leak was the waste / soil pipe running through the concrete pad between the flats. This pipe serves our flat only. 
There is no leak at pipe point within our flat but the leak is seeping up through the concrete and has caused very minor damage on our laminate. The main damage is in the flat below where the bathroom ceiling has fallen through, with drips coming from the concrete pad into their bath. 

My expectation is the flat below will have their property repaired through their contents insurance. However in terms of resolving the issue of the leak the detection company suggested that it would effectively require our bathroom to be ripped out, the concrete pad dug into, the pipe repaired and then everything rebuilt. Am I wrong in assuming buildings insurance (owned by the leaseholder for the building) should cover the cost of doing this? Potentially everything but physically repairing the actual pipe. 

Appreciate any guidance!!! A quite stressful situation. 

No, I don't believe you are wrong.

This is almost certainly a building fabric issue, part of the building's infrastructure, to which the internals of each individual flat is then installed. So, yes, a 'buildings' insurance matter.

Yes, your bathroom may well need to be completely stripped out to gain access, but get written assurance that it will all be reinstated to at least existing condition.

ViewENE's incident seemingly worked out well for them, but had no reasonable alternative been available to the ManCo, then they would have put on their size 12 boots and ripped out their kitchen, threats of 'legal action' being immaterial. Check your deeds - good chance all of this is made clear in there.

You, Soton, may wish to get some advice on whether an alternative method of gaining access is possible, but be prepared to accept the 'worst case'. Having said that, if your current bathroom is looking a bit 'tired', then, well, you know... :-)

I'd have thought that, with the ceiling of the flat below already being kaput, if they were able to gain access via that route they'd have jumped at it. So, I suspect you are stuffed - hopefully nicely.

Another thing you can do is ask the ManCo to get three quotes for the work - if all three contractors say 'bathroom oot', then fair do's.

Sotonsaddler10

ThisIsWeird said:

Sotonsaddler10 said:

Hi, 
New to the chat forum, wondered if anyone could provide any advice as my head is spinning on this one. 

I have a top floor flat in a leasehold building. Recently the flat below reported a leak via their landlord (which are a property company) coming into their bathroom. In response to this we got a leak detection company out to assess the cause. They determined that the cause of the leak was the waste / soil pipe running through the concrete pad between the flats. This pipe serves our flat only. 
There is no leak at pipe point within our flat but the leak is seeping up through the concrete and has caused very minor damage on our laminate. The main damage is in the flat below where the bathroom ceiling has fallen through, with drips coming from the concrete pad into their bath. 

My expectation is the flat below will have their property repaired through their contents insurance. However in terms of resolving the issue of the leak the detection company suggested that it would effectively require our bathroom to be ripped out, the concrete pad dug into, the pipe repaired and then everything rebuilt. Am I wrong in assuming buildings insurance (owned by the leaseholder for the building) should cover the cost of doing this? Potentially everything but physically repairing the actual pipe. 

Appreciate any guidance!!! A quite stressful situation. 

No, I don't believe you are wrong.

This is almost certainly a building fabric issue, part of the building's infrastructure, to which the internals of each individual flat is then installed. So, yes, a 'buildings' insurance matter.

Yes, your bathroom may well need to be completely stripped out to gain access, but get written assurance that it will all be reinstated to at least existing condition.

ViewENE's incident seemingly worked out well for them, but had no reasonable alternative been available to the ManCo, then they would have put on their size 12 boots and ripped out their kitchen, threats of 'legal action' being immaterial. Check your deeds - good chance all of this is made clear in there.

You, Soton, may wish to get some advice on whether an alternative method of gaining access is possible, but be prepared to accept the 'worst case'. Having said that, if your current bathroom is looking a bit 'tired', then, well, you know... :-)

I'd have thought that, with the ceiling of the flat below already being kaput, if they were able to gain access via that route they'd have jumped at it. So, I suspect you are stuffed - hopefully nicely.

Another thing you can do is ask the ManCo to get three quotes for the work - if all three contractors say 'bathroom oot', then fair do's.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sentimental about the bathroom so have no issue with any destruction, I am sentimental about the money! I've made it very clear to my property management company that I expect it to be covered as part of "building's Insurance" which we pay as part of our service charge and they manage so balls in "their court" so to speak. I think I've actually gone above and beyond in detecting the leak, I suspect we should have track and access as part of BI also. 
Finger's crossed, I expect it's the type of thing that'll drag on.... 

ThisIsWeird

Sotonsaddler10 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Sotonsaddler10 said:

Hi, 
New to the chat forum, wondered if anyone could provide any advice as my head is spinning on this one. 

I have a top floor flat in a leasehold building. Recently the flat below reported a leak via their landlord (which are a property company) coming into their bathroom. In response to this we got a leak detection company out to assess the cause. They determined that the cause of the leak was the waste / soil pipe running through the concrete pad between the flats. This pipe serves our flat only. 
There is no leak at pipe point within our flat but the leak is seeping up through the concrete and has caused very minor damage on our laminate. The main damage is in the flat below where the bathroom ceiling has fallen through, with drips coming from the concrete pad into their bath. 

My expectation is the flat below will have their property repaired through their contents insurance. However in terms of resolving the issue of the leak the detection company suggested that it would effectively require our bathroom to be ripped out, the concrete pad dug into, the pipe repaired and then everything rebuilt. Am I wrong in assuming buildings insurance (owned by the leaseholder for the building) should cover the cost of doing this? Potentially everything but physically repairing the actual pipe. 

Appreciate any guidance!!! A quite stressful situation. 

No, I don't believe you are wrong.

This is almost certainly a building fabric issue, part of the building's infrastructure, to which the internals of each individual flat is then installed. So, yes, a 'buildings' insurance matter.

Yes, your bathroom may well need to be completely stripped out to gain access, but get written assurance that it will all be reinstated to at least existing condition.

ViewENE's incident seemingly worked out well for them, but had no reasonable alternative been available to the ManCo, then they would have put on their size 12 boots and ripped out their kitchen, threats of 'legal action' being immaterial. Check your deeds - good chance all of this is made clear in there.

You, Soton, may wish to get some advice on whether an alternative method of gaining access is possible, but be prepared to accept the 'worst case'. Having said that, if your current bathroom is looking a bit 'tired', then, well, you know... :-)

I'd have thought that, with the ceiling of the flat below already being kaput, if they were able to gain access via that route they'd have jumped at it. So, I suspect you are stuffed - hopefully nicely.

Another thing you can do is ask the ManCo to get three quotes for the work - if all three contractors say 'bathroom oot', then fair do's.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sentimental about the bathroom so have no issue with any destruction, I am sentimental about the money! I've made it very clear to my property management company that I expect it to be covered as part of "building's Insurance" which we pay as part of our service charge and they manage so balls in "their court" so to speak. I think I've actually gone above and beyond in detecting the leak, I suspect we should have track and access as part of BI also. 
Finger's crossed, I expect it's the type of thing that'll drag on.... 

I neglected my usual first Q - do you have LegProt included in your contents insurance?
If so, call them up for guidance.

Sotonsaddler10

ThisIsWeird said:

Sotonsaddler10 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Sotonsaddler10 said:

Hi, 
New to the chat forum, wondered if anyone could provide any advice as my head is spinning on this one. 

I have a top floor flat in a leasehold building. Recently the flat below reported a leak via their landlord (which are a property company) coming into their bathroom. In response to this we got a leak detection company out to assess the cause. They determined that the cause of the leak was the waste / soil pipe running through the concrete pad between the flats. This pipe serves our flat only. 
There is no leak at pipe point within our flat but the leak is seeping up through the concrete and has caused very minor damage on our laminate. The main damage is in the flat below where the bathroom ceiling has fallen through, with drips coming from the concrete pad into their bath. 

My expectation is the flat below will have their property repaired through their contents insurance. However in terms of resolving the issue of the leak the detection company suggested that it would effectively require our bathroom to be ripped out, the concrete pad dug into, the pipe repaired and then everything rebuilt. Am I wrong in assuming buildings insurance (owned by the leaseholder for the building) should cover the cost of doing this? Potentially everything but physically repairing the actual pipe. 

Appreciate any guidance!!! A quite stressful situation. 

No, I don't believe you are wrong.

This is almost certainly a building fabric issue, part of the building's infrastructure, to which the internals of each individual flat is then installed. So, yes, a 'buildings' insurance matter.

Yes, your bathroom may well need to be completely stripped out to gain access, but get written assurance that it will all be reinstated to at least existing condition.

ViewENE's incident seemingly worked out well for them, but had no reasonable alternative been available to the ManCo, then they would have put on their size 12 boots and ripped out their kitchen, threats of 'legal action' being immaterial. Check your deeds - good chance all of this is made clear in there.

You, Soton, may wish to get some advice on whether an alternative method of gaining access is possible, but be prepared to accept the 'worst case'. Having said that, if your current bathroom is looking a bit 'tired', then, well, you know... :-)

I'd have thought that, with the ceiling of the flat below already being kaput, if they were able to gain access via that route they'd have jumped at it. So, I suspect you are stuffed - hopefully nicely.

Another thing you can do is ask the ManCo to get three quotes for the work - if all three contractors say 'bathroom oot', then fair do's.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sentimental about the bathroom so have no issue with any destruction, I am sentimental about the money! I've made it very clear to my property management company that I expect it to be covered as part of "building's Insurance" which we pay as part of our service charge and they manage so balls in "their court" so to speak. I think I've actually gone above and beyond in detecting the leak, I suspect we should have track and access as part of BI also. 
Finger's crossed, I expect it's the type of thing that'll drag on.... 

I neglected my usual first Q - do you have LegProt included in your contents insurance?
If so, call them up for guidance.

Looking through the contents insurance it looks like we have a legal helpline which will provide initial advice but if additional support is required that then incurs legal costs we're on our own. I'll give them a call. 

gm0

Much above assumes that the soil stack is not demised to flat plumbing.   Which is the assumption that suits OP.  If true. (Site plans, leases, nature of shared and unshared (per flat) elements.

If determined to be non-demised - communal/structure.  Which would be more obvious if it was a shared stack.  It may well be freeholder structural but absent plans and leases this is just speculation on our part here.

Whether the ManCo have insurance on it from buildings cover will depend on both the nature of the cover and failure.  And the excess on the "rebuilding policy" which may be high enough to make a claim (and subsequent raised premiums) unattractive.

You may wish post bathroom removal/make good quotes as part of repair by ManCo process to agree a compensation value of claim and take that money as the contribution towards what you want to do - not the bathroom "make good" lowest cost bodging from their contractor.  What they consider an adequate make good - you may disagree with.  But if you aren't the hirer this is difficult.  And they don't owe you a brand new bespoke bathroom either.  Loss adjusters.  Negotiation.  But you then do the bathroom you want with the contractor you want. 

If it was demised to flat plumbing causing a problem. The liability to act.  And the rectification of it would be on you. 

A lot of flat plumbing falls into this category - on many sites - after a communal manifold and water meter pipes from cellar to flat may be demised.  And on drain side - toilets and joints demised and connections to shared stack in the wall are the boundary to something considered structure.

Where the investigation is paid for by a leaseholder and it subsequently determined to be communal structure.  It is normal for the MA to then repay the investigation cost.  Send invoice and letter to them. 

Leaseholders going first is also normal.  As more often than not - it is wall showers, boxed in toilets etc.  - Demised plumbing.

eddddy

Sotonsaddler10 said:

The main damage is in the flat below where the bathroom ceiling has fallen through...

My expectation is the flat below will have their property repaired through their contents insurance.

I know this thread is 3 days old, but...

Their ceiling is part of 'the building' - so it would be covered by the buildings insurance, which is usually arranged by the freeholder or management company.

But sometimes 'escape of water' claims for blocks of flats have very high insurance excesses - maybe £1k or £5k or even more. So it might not be economic to claim.

If the water or falling ceiling had damaged, for example, a sofa, a bed or a TV - those are contents and would be covered by the flat owner's contents insurance.

Sotonsaddler10 said:

However in terms of resolving the issue of the leak the detection company suggested that it would effectively require our bathroom to be ripped out, the concrete pad dug into, the pipe repaired and then everything rebuilt. Am I wrong in assuming buildings insurance (owned by the leaseholder for the building) should cover the cost of doing this? Potentially everything but physically repairing the actual pipe. 

It depends.

If your freeholder's buildings insurance policy has "trace and access" cover - that should cover removal and reinstatement of your bathroom.

Not all buildings insurance policies have "trace and access" cover. TBH, I'm not sure if it's usual to have that cover with block of flats insurance - I think it might not be usual.

Where an insurance claim relates to damage to more than one flat - it's usual to 'share' the excess - maybe pro-rata.

So if there is "trace and access" cover, and it costs £1k to repair the neighbour's ceiling, and £2k to rip out and replace your bathroom - you might be required to pay 2/3rds of the excess.

But for example, if the excess is £5k, claiming would be pointless - so you'd probably have to pay the £2k yourself.