Neighbour shed on land. Need to build fence. Advice needed

Kat1122

Hi!

We bought our semi detached property end of 2023. Our house is ex council and next door is still council. There is no fence between the two houses in the front or rear. 

I have two children under 3 so last year looked to get a fence put on the side of house and between us and the house joined on to keep girls in the garden. Every company said they couldn't do it as next door have built their shed about a foot onto our property. Also at some point the council have replaced their clothes pole and put it a few inches on our property. I contacted the council who looked at the paperwork from the people who bought the house of council (who we bought from) who agreed that it's a straight split down the two houses. We have coal cellars out the back so the gutter that splits them is a straight line down. 

Next door have some confusion about this as they are constantly moving their table and chairs back onto our property etc. To add they are in their 70s and he stated he moved in there with his mum and living there since. Certain things he is doing seems that he isn't as switched on as maybe he used to be.  We bumped into the neighbours behind which their garden runs along and they said he had tried to take some of their land and they had to dispute with the council.

I cannot go another summer without a fence for my kids as they obviously love being outside. I would feel guilty asking him to take down his shed as he's not fit enough. Shed looks max 3 years old and we were told of council our house had been empty for 2 years going by council tax payments. Can a fence be built stopping at his shed or is this impossible? I know I'll need to ask council to move post or explain to him it's on our land and fence it in but its his post. 

Any advice recommended on how to proceed and sorry for long post!! 

Alderbank

Any chance of a picture?

ButterCheese

If it's your land then you must fight to take it back.  You need to forget that the neighbours are old, and the shed is new, and just deal with the facts.  It is not your fault that this has been done, and if you ignore it or try to accomodate this problem now (i.e. by bringing your fence back to go around the shed) then it'll be all the harder to do anything about it in the future.

People do tend to try and creep their boundary outside of what is there's e.g. if it backs onto a wooded area or something, but into someone's garden is a no-no. From what your other neighbours have said about these people, it seems clear to me that they know exactly what they are doing and it should be stopped.

EssexExile

On the other hand I always try to have good neighbourly relationships so I'd just build the fence up to the shed.

teaselMay

If it were mine I'd take your confirmation from the council that the boundary is a straight line round to the neighbour and offer to help them move the shed back on to their own land this weekend. If the council placed the pole you probably need to get them to move it but I'd insist that they do it, and very soon. I'd be putting a fence up very quickly.

ThisIsWeird

Hi Kat.
Who put the shed there? Ie, who built it? What size is it? What sort of base does it sit on?
The clothes pole should be an easy issue, as you say the council put it there, so they can shift it. If it's lift-off, then you can do this, and place it safely on their land when you build your fence. Best, tho', is to let the council reposition it. I wonder why they positioned it incorrectly? Was there a previous pole there? If so, where? This new pole isn't intended for both of you, is it?!
Do you have Legal Protection in your house insurance? If so, well done. Call them up, and explain the situation with this shed - they will advise the correct way forward.
The good thing about almost every semi-detached house, is that determining the true boundary can be done with unusual precision - to the inch (provided, of course, the deeds map confirms the land boundary continues in a straight line between the houses). So, there should be no 'discussion' as to where the true boundary is.
As said above, you do need to forget that these are old folk. You need a fence for valid security reasons, and you are entitled to this (provided your deeds don't covenant against it...). You are also entitled to enjoy all of your land. So, the shed really needs to move. And, it can be moved - they are not permanent fixtures.
Alternatively, perhaps as a stop-gap, you can take your fence tight up against it, and continue this fence from the other side; that will give you the garden security you need, and the gap can be closed once the shed is ultimately moved.
A photo would be handy, also showing what sort of base the shed is on. If solid and large enough, a shed can quite easily be moved using a long pry bar!

Kat1122

Sorry for poor photo but partner doesn't get home till after dark so can't leave kids in house. The dip in the concrete next to blue line is where the gutter is on other side. 

The clothes pole should be an easy issue, as you say the council put it there, so they can shift it. If it's lift-off, then you can do this, and place it safely on their land when you build your fence. Best, tho', is to let the council reposition it. I wonder why they positioned it incorrectly? it wouldnt surprise me if he has told the council worker the boundary and where to put it. The workers we have had have all said he was out showing the boundary. He stopped my gardener come back last season as he went out everytime to watch him and make sure he wasnt on his land. Was there a previous pole there? If so, where? unsure as would have been before i moved in but if like ours would have been in a square so further into his side This new pole isn't intended for both of you, is it?! no I have my 4 at the other side of the garden 

excuse the mess of the garden we have had workers in sorting ours and his is a separate issue we have raised with the council about food on floor constantly. 

ThisIsWeird

I can't say I follow what's in the pic, but that shed is easily moveable. If it has stuff in it, then you may need more manpower.
If the guy gets stubborn and bolshie, you can resort to a pry bar to shirt it along...
Do you have LegProt?
It does sound like someone who's a bit paranoid about boundaries, and willing to push them, so place any sympathy aside. This is 'matter-of-fact' stuff, tho' of course you are calm, courteous and reasonable at all time.

ThisIsWeird

I notice all the other fences are low picket type? Do check your deeds that there aren't any restrictive covenants regarding fence heights and styles.

Kat1122

Apologies. The view is from my kitchen window. So the concrete is the roof to the coal cellars out the back and the blue line is the dip where the water goes down the gutter which council agreed was the split between the two properties. The spiral thing is next doors garden hose on their close pole. 

No it's just those two fences are like that everyone else has 6ft. Think those neighbours have a right of access so smaller fence. I have checked over deeds etc and only thing it states is that if they need to repair their house by coming on our land then we need to let them. 

ThisIsWeird

Ah, that concrete slab is a roof! 
The right to access a neighbouring property in order to carry out maintenance and repair is standard, and available to everyone, so don't worry about that. (To clarify, if there is no reasonable alternative, and if it's a matter of necessity, then you request access, and - if they refuse - you can get a court order. Ie, we all have this entitlement, so nothing unusual in your case).
It also seems clear that there is no restriction on you placing a 6' fence there.

I'll ask for the third time - do you have LegProt?! 

If you do, then that's your starting point - you call them up - which costs nothing - and ask for their guidance. You do this just to cover yourself, because they will guide you on the correct legal approach, and if the issue escalates (very unlikely here), then they will be on board to help you sort it.

Almost certainly the first step will be simple; it'll be to ask the council to remove their incorrectly positioned post, so that you can secure your garden for your young children. Ask them if they'd also kindly explain to their tenant where the boundary is located, and that you'll be putting a fence along that line - so to please move their shed.
Technically, that second issue is between you and your neighbour, but it would carry some weight if the council also informed them of the boundary position, and that what they were doing is a 'trespass'.
The rest is then up to you. If you have LegProt, then you follow their steps - ultimately it could lead to a court order for your neighb to remove the 'trespass'. If they refuse, it'll be a 'contempt' of court, and they'd be incredibly stupid to allow it to get there. This shouldn't cost you anything - a few stamps, perhaps.

If you don't have Leg Prot*, then the solution is up to you. The 'correct' one is to follow the same steps as guided by your LP, but on your own. 

Alternative methods are to jemmy or lift their shed fully on to their land. Once you do this, it's a 'fait accompli' - and you get your fence up right away. If your neighb threatens to move it back, you record them saying this, and you get ready to call your local Bobby as this could be 'aggravated trespass' - ie, a criminal offence (Your neighbour would be threatening to 'intentionally' trespass in a way that prevents you from carry out your 'lawful activities'). You record yourself - hold up your phone so they can see what you are doing - and say summat like, "I am installing a boundary fence, as is my lawful entitlement. If you interfere with this, it would be aggravated trespass, a criminal offence, and I will call the police..."

Possibly you might even find fencers who will be ok about shifting the shed if you explain what's going on - this won't be the first incident they'll have come across - they might even relish it . 
But, obviously, you start the whole process in the most reasonable and friendly manner, explaining the literal situation on the ground to your neighbour, and perhaps offering to help them shift the shed. You be 100% Mr&Mrs Reasonable. If you think they might be awkward, then I strongly suggest you have some means of surreptitiously recording all this - perhaps your phone propped up somewhere to capture it all, or you can invest £15 in a discrete pocket recorder, or have someone else there who is casually holding their phone on record. The more patently reasonable you are, and the more ditto unreasonable they are, the more rope you'll be giving them should you need to escalate the matter.
Use Q's as much as possible - Ie, after explaining to them what you wish to do and why, if they argue, then try and make them answer your points, rather than 'telling' them. Eg;
"You agree that the mid-point of our houses is exactly there, yes?" "No? Oh, so where do you think it is?" "Why do you think it's there?" "The party wall that divides us is just there, ins't it?" etc etc.
"And if we take a straight and perpendicular line from there to the back fence, it lands just there, yes?"
"Do you think it's ok to put your items in someone else's garden?"
"Would you think it ok if I left my bikes and mower on your side? Had a picnic in front of your window?" Etc etc. All done in a nice, light manner, smiles, nice and calm. If they are truly obstinate, then you will at least have this recorded, and it won't help them. Ultimately, you will have your fence!
You'll soon get a measure of their calibre, and I have to say that my suspicion is they are somewhat cunning and entitled sods, as that shed is clearly waaaay over the boundary line! As are other items... But, I also suspect they'll capitulate quite easily.
Ok, the boundary. The best pic to take is one from the back of your garden, as near the anticipated boundary line as possible, and taken straight-on at the back of your houses - could you do this? Crop away their kitchen window for privacy, leaving only a strip so we can see where it is. Try and include the gutter and stack.
I'm assuming your houses are mirrored-symmetrical? In which case, the centre of your party wall will be mid-point between the two identical windows - give or take, and unless one has been modified. Ditto the centre of the chimney stack. The gutter downpipe, however, could be dog-legged, but that should be clear. You use Pythagoras or a similar method to determine a perpendicular line coming away from your houses. Don't guess. Don't compromise. Don't think 'this is near enough'. Work it out! Then make an unmovable mark on the back fence, or hammer in a post. 
If your neighb moans about it's 'accuracy', don't argue - just explain what you've done, and ask them to calculate it instead. Record all this.
Then - important - you explain that you will be positioning your fence fully on your side of this line, so they won't lose an inch of their garden - all the loss will be yours. Then explain that this also means that you will own the new fence in its entirety. (That means they aren't allowed to touch it, and if they do start hanging or screwing things to it, you do take action. Hence future LegProt... )



*Then for gawds sakes add it, in case the neighbour becomes a twit on other issues.