Help - How to Prove a Scam

retiredbanker1

In my previous life I had a customer who fell for a Bitcoin scam.
I found out about when she came in to make additional payment to a 'broker' based abroad.
She was overjoyed to find out that her original investment had increased by 50% in 6 months and they were advising her to put more money in.
I took her into an interview room put the internet on and showed her what scammers they were - but she would have none of it!  She was completely taken in and would not consider that she would never see her money again.
We agreed on the day that she would not send any further funds but I advised her to contact them asking for the return of her 'profits' just to see what would happen - apparently they got angry with her that she was not going to invest any more money and the phone number she had stopped working.
The penny had dropped and she reluctantly told her son what had gone on.
Of course the son blamed the bank for the initial payment but I had retired before the outcome of that complaint.

OP you just have to keep on trying to convince your friend perhaps even taking them to be interviewed by their bank - if you can find an open branch?

Section62

ButterCheese said:

HollyandCo said:

She has a son, he doesn't show much interest in her. 

Unfortunately I was expecting this, it's so sad

For balance, it is possible he's tried but got to the point where he's given up trying.  The OP has tried telling this lady as a concerned friend, but got nowhere. Maybe the son has done the same and has come to a realisation that the more he points out his mum's error, the more determined she becomes to hand over her cash.  I have no evidence for that, it is a pure guess about people I don't know.  But is based on experience seeing a similar situation elsewhere. And it fits with the evidence that she seems more determined now the OP has explained things.

The scam is working because the victim is willing to believe she is more inteligent than those around her, and she is right and they are all wrong. Despite this happening before, she's not learned.  She trusts strangers more than her closest friends.

I'm picking my words carefully because I don't want to cross the line into victim blaming, but sometimes with people you have to step back and let them make their own mistakes because trying to stop them is too difficult and exhausting emotionally, and stressful to boot.

If she has capacity then she can't be stopped from doing what she wants to do.  But maybe there is a question to be asked about that capacity?  Maybe the son's position is that the time has come to let her make a fool of herself (again) to force a discussion around that question?

Like I said, I'm guessing. I could be completely wrong.

Eco_Miser

SacredStephan said:

DiamondLil said:
Oh yes, I absolutely agree. I've even emailed "Scam Interceptors" about the use of the term "Scam". Many of the victims of this type of crime are older and not too familiar with that term. Call it what it is - fraud, theft, stealing, criminal. Us old codgers are much more familiar with those words.

When I was talking to my elderly FiL about scammers and cold callers he looked a bit confused until I realised that he didn't know what a scammer was - not in his vocabulary. When I used the words crooks, thieves and robbers he knew immediately. I'm fairly sure that AgeUK produce a booklet to help people understand the situations where they might be defrauded.

Other phrases that may be more familiar "confidence trickster", "con trick", "con man".

HollyandCo

Section62 said:

ButterCheese said:

HollyandCo said:

She has a son, he doesn't show much interest in her. 

Unfortunately I was expecting this, it's so sad

For balance, it is possible he's tried but got to the point where he's given up trying.  The OP has tried telling this lady as a concerned friend, but got nowhere. Maybe the son has done the same and has come to a realisation that the more he points out his mum's error, the more determined she becomes to hand over her cash.  I have no evidence for that, it is a pure guess about people I don't know.  But is based on experience seeing a similar situation elsewhere. And it fits with the evidence that she seems more determined now the OP has explained things.

The scam is working because the victim is willing to believe she is more inteligent than those around her, and she is right and they are all wrong. Despite this happening before, she's not learned.  She trusts strangers more than her closest friends.

I'm picking my words carefully because I don't want to cross the line into victim blaming, but sometimes with people you have to step back and let them make their own mistakes because trying to stop them is too difficult and exhausting emotionally, and stressful to boot.

If she has capacity then she can't be stopped from doing what she wants to do.  But maybe there is a question to be asked about that capacity?  Maybe the son's position is that the time has come to let her make a fool of herself (again) to force a discussion around that question?

Like I said, I'm guessing. I could be completely wrong.

I actually think you could well be hitting the nail on the head.

We have now had a few words, she is quite upset with me and has now gone down a dismissive route.  She is saying she doesn't care if it is a scam because she is having fun!  These men are buttering her up, telling her that they will 'look after her' and they are making her feel very important.  She is a lonely person who just wants to feel wanted and special.

I am going to back off, but not until I tell her, it's ok to have her fun, but does she realise that recruiting other people into this scam is making her an 'enabler', ie, she is actively working for a bunch of thieves.

Section62

HollyandCo said:

Section62 said:

ButterCheese said:

HollyandCo said:

She has a son, he doesn't show much interest in her. 

Unfortunately I was expecting this, it's so sad

For balance, it is possible he's tried but got to the point where he's given up trying.  The OP has tried telling this lady as a concerned friend, but got nowhere. Maybe the son has done the same and has come to a realisation that the more he points out his mum's error, the more determined she becomes to hand over her cash.  I have no evidence for that, it is a pure guess about people I don't know.  But is based on experience seeing a similar situation elsewhere. And it fits with the evidence that she seems more determined now the OP has explained things.

The scam is working because the victim is willing to believe she is more inteligent than those around her, and she is right and they are all wrong. Despite this happening before, she's not learned.  She trusts strangers more than her closest friends.

I'm picking my words carefully because I don't want to cross the line into victim blaming, but sometimes with people you have to step back and let them make their own mistakes because trying to stop them is too difficult and exhausting emotionally, and stressful to boot.

If she has capacity then she can't be stopped from doing what she wants to do.  But maybe there is a question to be asked about that capacity?  Maybe the son's position is that the time has come to let her make a fool of herself (again) to force a discussion around that question?

Like I said, I'm guessing. I could be completely wrong.

I actually think you could well be hitting the nail on the head.

We have now had a few words, she is quite upset with me and has now gone down a dismissive route.  She is saying she doesn't care if it is a scam because she is having fun!  These men are buttering her up, telling her that they will 'look after her' and they are making her feel very important.  She is a lonely person who just wants to feel wanted and special.

I am going to back off, but not until I tell her, it's ok to have her fun, but does she realise that recruiting other people into this scam is making her an 'enabler', ie, she is actively working for a bunch of thieves.

If she knows it is a scam and is continuing to recruit people then arguably she is going beyond 'enabler' into the territory of 'criminal' herself.

Though I suspect what she has told you is more akin to defensiveness, and may still believe this is a genuine money making opportunity.

Her being lonely is sad, and if/when the scam is revealed her circle of acquaintances suffer she may find herself even more lonely than she is now.

For your own sake, what I'd do is to write down the details of the conversations you've had with her (e.g. include times and date) and also make sure you don't have financial links with her - for example don't pay her (or have her pay you) using bank transfers. Try and insulate yourself (financially) as much as possible from any fallout.

[Deleted User]

Section62 said:

For your own sake... make sure you don't have financial links with her - for example don't pay her (or have her pay you) using bank transfers. Try and insulate yourself (financially) as much as possible from any fallout.

That's what I was going to post. If the OP feels concerned enough to transfer a few quid one day they could face having all their accounts shut down and being denied banking for life.