What happens with Title Deeds if there are more than 4 people?

bb_1987

Hi, I'm hoping someone can help with the following who has been through it before...

My father passed away leaving a property, there are 3 names on the Title Deeds for this property (after his was removed).

I need to add my brother and I to the deeds to replace our late father but, as per the Land Registry instructions, I can only put 4 names on the Title Deeds.

If I only put my brother on the deeds and leave myself off what are the implications for me?

Will I lose a say in what happens to the property?

Also, the title deeds don't show the division of the ownership, i.e. what is each persons share. If not on the title deeds where is this information detailed?

Thanks.

Linton

Cant answer your specific question but splitting the ownership of the house between 4 people sounds like a good basis for disagreements and division within the family.  Whatever the 4 beneficiaries want to happen to the property, it may well be simpler and  cheaper for it to be done whilst owned by the estate, not after it is distributed. If any of the beneficiaries dont already own property getting a share of the house would stop them claiming the low rate first time buyer stamp duty.

msb1234

Is there a reason why you’re not selling the property?

Keep_pedalling

Assuming the property is held as tenants in common, then unless there is a deed of trust in place then the default is that they own shares in equal percentages.if you and your sibling are to be added as owners a deed of trust will now need to be made. This will cover the fact that only four can be recorded on the LR and to show that each of you own 1/8th and the existing surviving owners own 1/4 each.

Who are the other owners? Are any of then living there?

bb_1987

Thanks,

The property is a business premises with tenants (none of us live there) that has been in the family for may years.
Nobody wants to sell at the moment as it provides a steady and important income.

Up until a few years ago the property was owned by three brothers (one of whom is was my father (the middle brother)).
The eldest brother died first and his two children inherited a 1/6 each, with my father and the other brother remaining 1/3 owners. Then my father passed on and he left his third to my brother and I.
Our solicitors (Coop (ASIDE...I cannot recommend them)) removed my fathers name from the title deeds for the property and advised my brother and I to add our names. Since our uncle and two cousins are already on the deeds there is only space for one name.

It looks like we will need to get a deed of trust set up. This would seem further sensible as should my uncle die (hopefully along way off) there will be his three children to add.

Keep_pedalling

bb_1987 said:

Thanks,

The property is a business premises with tenants (none of us live there) that has been in the family for may years.
Nobody wants to sell at the moment as it provides a steady and important income.

Up until a few years ago the property was owned by three brothers (one of whom is was my father (the middle brother)).
The eldest brother died first and his two children inherited a 1/6 each, with my father and the other brother remaining 1/3 owners. Then my father passed on and he left his third to my brother and I.
Our solicitors (Coop (ASIDE...I cannot recommend them)) removed my fathers name from the title deeds for the property and advised my brother and I to add our names. Since our uncle and two cousins are already on the deeds there is only space for one name.

It looks like we will need to get a deed of trust set up. This would seem further sensible as should my uncle die (hopefully along way off) there will be his three children to add.

A deed of trust should have been put in place when the oldest brother died. Hopefully you are all on good terms and can sort one out now. I can’t see why your father’s name has been removed ahead of any other changes.

Do you both want to actually own a share in this business? 

poseidon1

bb_1987 said:

Thanks,

The property is a business premises with tenants (none of us live there) that has been in the family for may years.
Nobody wants to sell at the moment as it provides a steady and important income.

Up until a few years ago the property was owned by three brothers (one of whom is was my father (the middle brother)).
The eldest brother died first and his two children inherited a 1/6 each, with my father and the other brother remaining 1/3 owners. Then my father passed on and he left his third to my brother and I.
Our solicitors (Coop (ASIDE...I cannot recommend them)) removed my fathers name from the title deeds for the property and advised my brother and I to add our names. Since our uncle and two cousins are already on the deeds there is only space for one name.

It looks like we will need to get a deed of trust set up. This would seem further sensible as should my uncle die (hopefully along way off) there will be his three children to add.

A deed of trust is now overdue.

The deed will state the 4 legal owners ( on title ) hold the property on trust for you all in shares set out in the deed. Subsequent to the deed being executed a Form A restriction should be registered at the Land registry to put the world at large on notice of the trust' s exsistence. See below a useful article on trust declarations and the Land Register requirements related thereto.

https://www.jonathanlea.net/blog/how-to-register-a-declaration-of-trust-at-the-land-registry/#:~:text=In registered land the way,that proprietor was a trustee

On a practical issue, is it the case that the surviving uncle is solely dealing with annual administration for the commercial property investment? If so, are you and your cousins now being informed of what this entails? With the demise of your father and older uncle, your surviving uncle should be preparing you all for succession management duties in the event of his eventual demise or long term sickness or incapacity. 

If your uncle has a solicitor that assists him with lease renewals and amendments , perhaps that solicitor could assist with the  Trust deed and subsequent Form A Restriction? It was presumptuous and over reaching  of the Co op to have got involved in the legal ownership  of the property on demise of your father, but it is odd that if there is a pre existing business solicitor with responsibility for lease renewals, that firm was not proactive in this matter at your surviving uncle's behest. 

Perhaps this maybe an opportunity to review the adequacy and competency of legal services currently being provided on behalf of the property owners and a formal meeting of you all to discuss these matters must make sense.

poseidon1

poseidon1 said:

bb_1987 said:

Thanks,

The property is a business premises with tenants (none of us live there) that has been in the family for may years.
Nobody wants to sell at the moment as it provides a steady and important income.

Up until a few years ago the property was owned by three brothers (one of whom is was my father (the middle brother)).
The eldest brother died first and his two children inherited a 1/6 each, with my father and the other brother remaining 1/3 owners. Then my father passed on and he left his third to my brother and I.
Our solicitors (Coop (ASIDE...I cannot recommend them)) removed my fathers name from the title deeds for the property and advised my brother and I to add our names. Since our uncle and two cousins are already on the deeds there is only space for one name.

It looks like we will need to get a deed of trust set up. This would seem further sensible as should my uncle die (hopefully along way off) there will be his three children to add.

A deed of trust is now overdue.

The deed will state the 4 legal owners ( on title ) hold the property on trust for you all in shares set out in the deed. Subsequent to the deed being executed a Form A restriction should be registered at the Land registry to put the world at large on notice of the trust' s exsistence. See below a useful article on trust declarations and the Land Register requirements related thereto.

https://www.jonathanlea.net/blog/how-to-register-a-declaration-of-trust-at-the-land-registry/#:~:text=In registered land the way,that proprietor was a trustee

On a practical issue, is it the case that the surviving uncle is solely dealing with annual administration for the commercial property investment? If so, are you and your cousins now being informed of what this entails? With the demise of your father and older uncle, your surviving uncle should be preparing you all for succession management duties in the event of his eventual demise or long term sickness or incapacity. 

If your uncle has a solicitor that assists him with lease renewals and amendments , perhaps that solicitor could assist with the  Trust deed and subsequent Form A Restriction? It was presumptuous and over reaching  of the Co op to have got involved in the legal ownership  of the property on demise of your father, but it is odd that if there is a pre existing business solicitor with responsibility for lease renewals, that firm was not proactive in this matter at your surviving uncle's behest. 

Perhaps this maybe an opportunity to review the adequacy and competency of legal services currently being provided on behalf of the property owners and a formal meeting of you all to discuss these matters must make sense.

As a PS to the above, is there an accountant in the mix, who produces simple accounts indicating the net taxable income reportable by each of the property owners?

If so is that accountant keeping a record of the changes in the base cost of the property in the hands of the surviving owners?

The surviving uncle is the only one that retains his original 1/3 rd cost on from purchase, you and your cousins are on ( possible) elevated market values at date of death of the two other brothers. Hopefully an accountant is keeping a record of these changes for each group of owners for  future capital gains tax purposes.

Incidentally, I did caveat that market values at each death may possibly be higher than original cost. This is not a given.

 Depending on location, type of property ( retail/offices/warehouse?) and quality of the occupying tenants and length of leases, the property could have seen a degree of depreciation especially since the pandemic. Hopefully, there were accurate  specialist valuations conducted on the occasion of each death.

bb_1987

Thanks, there’s a lot of useful information here, I will get some professional advice now. Thanks again.