What to do when the fraud squad sides with the fraudster? [Amex]

born_again

booneruk said:

born_again said:

Why do you think the retailer is complicit in this? They are just a innocent party being defrauded, same as card holder.

Only merchants can set up CPAs, right? Joe Bloggs can't just take a credit card number and set up a CPA into a personal account. 

So because the company sets up a CPA when they will not know it is a compromised card they are complicit in the fraud?

Now TV & many other well known companies are often used by fraudsters..

B0bbyEwing

Forgot to update this. 

Financial Ombudsman got back in touch with me. 

They've discovered that Amex didn't even conduct a fraudulent transaction investigation.

"a charge back was raised instead". 

The saga continues. 

born_again

B0bbyEwing said:

Forgot to update this. 

Financial Ombudsman got back in touch with me. 

They've discovered that Amex didn't even conduct a fraudulent transaction investigation.

"a charge back was raised instead". 

The saga continues. 

A chargeback is used for a fraud investigation.
The reason for the chargeback is marked fraud. If the retailer wants to contest, they need to provide details on the transaction.

Use this all the time.

B0bbyEwing

born_again said:

B0bbyEwing said:

Forgot to update this. 

Financial Ombudsman got back in touch with me. 

They've discovered that Amex didn't even conduct a fraudulent transaction investigation.

"a charge back was raised instead". 

The saga continues. 

A chargeback is used for a fraud investigation.
The reason for the chargeback is marked fraud. If the retailer wants to contest, they need to provide details on the transaction.

Use this all the time.

All I can do is shrug & say I've no idea. I can just post what I know & that is - 

I didn't make the transactions.
Amex decided that I did.
I've gone to the FO
FO have said a fraud investigation wasn't carried out & have given Amex a deadline.

Now whether I'm being given correct or incorrect info by anyone - I've no idea.

QrizB

B0bbyEwing said:

born_again said:

B0bbyEwing said:

Forgot to update this. 

Financial Ombudsman got back in touch with me. 

They've discovered that Amex didn't even conduct a fraudulent transaction investigation.

"a charge back was raised instead". 

The saga continues. 

A chargeback is used for a fraud investigation.
The reason for the chargeback is marked fraud. If the retailer wants to contest, they need to provide details on the transaction.

Use this all the time.

All I can do is shrug & say I've no idea. I can just post what I know & that is - 

I didn't make the transactions.
Amex decided that I did.
I've gone to the FO
FO have said a fraud investigation wasn't carried out & have given Amex a deadline.

Please keep us updated!

B0bbyEwing

QrizB said:

B0bbyEwing said:

born_again said:

B0bbyEwing said:

Forgot to update this. 

Financial Ombudsman got back in touch with me. 

They've discovered that Amex didn't even conduct a fraudulent transaction investigation.

"a charge back was raised instead". 

The saga continues. 

A chargeback is used for a fraud investigation.
The reason for the chargeback is marked fraud. If the retailer wants to contest, they need to provide details on the transaction.

Use this all the time.

All I can do is shrug & say I've no idea. I can just post what I know & that is - 

I didn't make the transactions.
Amex decided that I did.
I've gone to the FO
FO have said a fraud investigation wasn't carried out & have given Amex a deadline.

Please keep us updated!

Outcome - 

To sum it up, all is well that ends well. Even though I'm not best pleased with how they formed their decision.

Basically the merchant refunded me the amounts - but this annoyingly shows below everything on the statement and I must admit that I didn't clock it & I accept it's the customers responsibility to check the statement in full.

So bottom line, one way or another, I got the money back.

BUT

I'm still annoyed by the whole thing because on multiple occasions Amex had the opportunity to say - we're not refunding you because you've already been refunded. They didn't. They just said we're sticking by our decision. Communication helps lots!!!

BUT

More annoying to me than that is the timeline of things. Amex refunded me but then reversed their decision to refund me & hit me with the charge BEFORE the merchant refunded me. So while the Ombudsman is saying Amex aren't refunding me because I've already been refunded - that's not technically true. Their decision came before the merchant refund, and not just 1 or 2 days before it was like 2 weeks IIRC. So this to me says that Amex decided I made the transaction, not that I didn't make it.

So on the one hand, I got my money .... so who cares right?

But the way it was handled & the manipulation of timelines to make it sound like they wont refund because I've 'already' been refunded is frustratingly incorrect.

eskbanker

B0bbyEwing said:

More annoying to me than that is the timeline of things. Amex refunded me but then reversed their decision to refund me & hit me with the charge BEFORE the merchant refunded me. So while the Ombudsman is saying Amex aren't refunding me because I've already been refunded - that's not technically true. Their decision came before the merchant refund, and not just 1 or 2 days before it was like 2 weeks IIRC. So this to me says that Amex decided I made the transaction, not that I didn't make it.

So on the one hand, I got my money .... so who cares right?

But the way it was handled & the manipulation of timelines to make it sound like they wont refund because I've 'already' been refunded is frustratingly incorrect.

Just to be clear, are FOS asserting that Amex didn't (at the time) refund you because you'd already been refunded by the merchant, or simply that they're not instructing Amex to refund you (now) because the merchant has already done so?

B0bbyEwing

eskbanker said:

B0bbyEwing said:

More annoying to me than that is the timeline of things. Amex refunded me but then reversed their decision to refund me & hit me with the charge BEFORE the merchant refunded me. So while the Ombudsman is saying Amex aren't refunding me because I've already been refunded - that's not technically true. Their decision came before the merchant refund, and not just 1 or 2 days before it was like 2 weeks IIRC. So this to me says that Amex decided I made the transaction, not that I didn't make it.

So on the one hand, I got my money .... so who cares right?

But the way it was handled & the manipulation of timelines to make it sound like they wont refund because I've 'already' been refunded is frustratingly incorrect.

Just to be clear, are FOS asserting that Amex didn't (at the time) refund you because you'd already been refunded by the merchant, or simply that they're not instructing Amex to refund you (now) because the merchant has already done so?

The latter. 

I wasn't happy with the way they worded it tbh. It came across as an all's well that ends well kind of tone. As though if I found the money on the pavement outside then right you've got that money back one way or another so shut up & be happy kind of thing.

So I asked FOS - ok then, what would've happened had the merchant NOT refunded me ... since Amex made their decision to not refund me before the merchant refunded me. Their response...

Unfortunately, I can only speak hypothetically here as you’re asking about a situation that did not happen, but if the merchant did not refund you directly, then American Express’ position would have likely remained the same. Their decision not to refund you was because of their failed chargeback attempt to Canva. A chargeback is a dispute which is raised by a bank to a merchant to provide evidence of a purchase. Canva in this case declined American Express’ chargeback attempt and provided them with a receipt of the transactions which were then passed onto you by American Express.
 
If both American Express and Canva had decided not to refund you our investigation would have taken a different route where we would have focused on how the physical transactions were authorised and considered how this could have been done without your knowledge or input. However, as the refund has already been issued to you, we did not have to explore this route.

So basically had the merchant not refunded me, the investigation would've gone on further but who knows what the outcome would've been because that side of the investigation never took place. 

Still not impressed that Amex have basically called me a liar. I know that I have no hard proof that I'm not lying but why would I go through the hassle of challenging 1 subscription, which was 2 payments, to 1 merchant and nothing else in the years I've been with Amex?! Other than the subscription to ChatGPT the month prior which they acknowledged was fraudulent & refunded me.

Not sure if I said in this thread but I since found a YouTube video about ChatGPT & a minute or so in it actually shows a sort of connection to this Canva. Coincidence? I don't think so. So if they acknowledged the ChatGPT one was fraudulent, it should surely strengthen my argument the Canva one was also fraudulent if they're connected.

But anyway, it's all dealt with now. I just wanted to update because 99% of the time members don't bother to.

born_again

One thing here.
You say Amex pulled the refund before the retailer refunded you.
When a card is stopped, any refunds go to either a internal account, or the lost (old card). So Amex will have seen these & pulled their refund. The refunds would then have been transferred across to cover the loss. 👍