Wren kitchens..is it fraud?

EnPointe

Grumpy_chap said:

Did you have one contract with Wren to supply and install the kitchen?
Or, did you have a contract with Wren plus a second contract with the Fitter?

This is absolutely  key  

if it's the second scenario, you wouldn't sue the farmer/ butcher  because the chef  burnt your steak. 

the second scenario would also  explain why Wren were  dismissive of the complaint / directed the OP to take it up with the relevant individual  i.e. the fitter  

pinkshoes

EnPointe said:

pinkshoes said:

ricardo87 said:

Recently we purchased a Wren kitchen and it was installed by one of their approved fitters. 

Later we found out that almost everything had had been installed incorrectly.

The fitter was more interested in going to his next job and seemed to have several on the go at the same time.

The response of Wren was to ignore us.

The new fitter we found described the initial installation as 'horrific,' and he is essentially re-installing most of the kitchen again.

This has caused huge disruption and stress as after several months the kitchen is still not installed properly.

I think this is a case of fraud, as it is inconceivable an approved Wren fitter would have knowingly installed most parts of the kitchen in an incorrect way. Is 'fraud' a correct label to use, legally?

Does anyone recommend what we should do next? We want compensation but don't really want to argue with them for months to get a couple of hundred pounds. This is an extreme case and they must be liable.

Are there types of lawyers who deal with this, and what about others who had kitchens installed by the same fitter? It is not easy to see flaws in installations, to know what is warped, what bolts were  included, whether cabinets are affixed to walls in a safe way, whether lighting cables are safe, etc. 

This may be the tip of an iceberg.

Fraud? Compensation?

It's not fraud - they just don't vet their approved fitters very well. And it's not compensation you need, it's the cost of putting it right.

When you wrote to Wren and they ignored you, what did you say to them in your initial correspondence? Did you ask them to send a different fitter to fit the kitchen properly? Did you give them a timescale to respond by? Was this complaint via email and following their correct complain channels (if they have any)? e.g. can you prove you asked them to fix it.

Under consumer rights, you have to give them an opportunity to correct their mistake.

If you're satisfied you asked them to correct their poor fitting and they totally ignored you, your next step is to send Wren a letter before action giving them 14 days to pay £XXX (the amount it has cost you to have the kitchen fitted correctly) and if you don't pay you'll take them to court. Keep the letter factual, with dates of the initial fitting, the conversation with the fitter about fitting it correctly, your correspondence with them about it not having fitted it correctly and the fact that you gave them the opportunity to finish the work and they didn't reply. I'd then include a copy of the quote you have from your own fitter showing how much it is now costing you to have the kitchen completed.

A court will award your rightful out of pocket expenses so claim these. Asking for additional compensation for hurt feelings will not look good. 

You seem to be assuming that Wren  contract/ employ  the fitter there ...

because if not  it;s like suing the Farmer  because the chef  burnt your steak 

 The OP is not clear on the contractual arrangement with regard to supply and fitting 

did the OP  purchase the  Kitchen (units  etc)  from Wren themselves ?

did the OP contract  directly with the fitter  for installation of the kitchen they (OP)  / a sales person from Wren had 'designed'  / specified  for them ? 

 or does Wren  (sub) contract  the fitters ?

Yes, I've made the assumption that Wren contracted the fitter, as the OP uses the term "approved fitter" which is the term Wren use (or at least they did 2 years ago when a relative used them) for their supply and fit option. You pay Wren directly for supply and fit.

Also, the OP doesn't state any issues with the kitchen, just the fitting, so it would be odd to go back to Wren if they had used an independent fitter. 

Saying that, Tapi the carpet company give you a price to supply and fit, then you pay Tapi for the floor and the fitter is paid directly by you when the job is complete. It was a nightmare when I had a problem as the fitter blamed the floor being faulty and Tapi blamed the fitter for not fitting it properly and neither would take responsibility. 

The OP seems to have disappeared though so not sure we will find out.

DullGreyGuy

A_Geordie said:

but what you describes sounds fairly like a report, independent would just mean that the person preparing it wasnt doing so in the hope of being awarded the job of fixing the problems as this creates a conflict of interests which could be used to create doubt on the validity of aspects of the report. 

I wouldn't necessarily say that what I've described would be considered a report but I suppose it depends on one's own view as to what that means. If I was asking someone to provide a report, I would expect them to carry out an analysis of the alleged issues/damage, consider the root cause, outside factors that could have contributed and then come to a conclusion as to who is responsible and why - the kind of report you might get from the AA who offer independent vehicle assessments.

independent would just mean that the person preparing it wasnt doing so in the hope of being awarded the job of fixing the problems as this creates a conflict of interests which could be used to create doubt on the validity of aspects of the report. 

The court will take a neutral stance and it will be up to Wren/kitchen fitter to argue the assessment given by the new kitchen fitter is wrong or that he/she had ulterior motives based on their assessment. There is no rule or authority I am aware of that the assessor of the damage/issues must be separate from the individual/company who is rectifying those issues, and that there is a presumption that the same professional or company has some kind of ulterior motive if both assessing the damage and carrying out remedial work. 

Reports covers a wide spectrum of documents of varying depths, lengths and quality.

Certainly in some cases you would hope for and require a much more detailed set of analysis but root cause analysis on a bodged job of fitting a kitchen? There's no hint that the OP's fitter is going to blame Wren's goods for the requirement of "creative solutions" etc. 

Haven't seen an AA vehicle assessment report but have seen thousands of engineer reports on crash damage and if you cut the top off which is the engineer giving the background to their instruction inc declaring any conflicts of interest and cut the bottom off which is boiler plate stuff about their qualifications as an engineer may of them are as short as saying the wing has a dent, needs a new wing, respray and blending in so £250 labour, £300 parts and £50 paint is reasonable. Others will add detail like overall condition of the vehicle, that the damage is consistent with the accident circumstances as they understand them, that there was bare metal showing no signs of corrosion therefore supporting the timeline, opine on the hourly rate in the area etc. At the end of the day either way we just stuck the car reg into Audatex, say a f/n/s wing is needed and check the three figures against the estimate the system gives. 


Fully agree that in the English court system judges are neutral and predominately passive nor that there is any rule that says you have to use an independent witness/expert however its not uncommon for ulterior motives or bias to be raised by the other side as a reason to why it cannot be trusted. Its common in claims scenarios that a family member witnessed the incident but out of hand we will typically ignore a witness statement pre-litigation from a wife/husband etc (unless it contradicts their drivers/claimants) but it would be admissible in court but we would inevitably state its biased. Ultimately the judge will make up their own mind on how influenced they are likely to be.

On the basis you are free to choose your own witness/expert in this type of scenario it is simply prudent to choose one where a conflict of interest cannot be raised and potentially undermine your evidence. Its why professional report writers, at least in my industry, normally include at least a line on conflicts of interests in their report

Alderbank

EnPointe said:

pinkshoes said:

ricardo87 said:

Recently we purchased a Wren kitchen and it was installed by one of their approved fitters. 

Later we found out that almost everything had had been installed incorrectly.

The fitter was more interested in going to his next job and seemed to have several on the go at the same time.

The response of Wren was to ignore us.

The new fitter we found described the initial installation as 'horrific,' and he is essentially re-installing most of the kitchen again.

This has caused huge disruption and stress as after several months the kitchen is still not installed properly.

I think this is a case of fraud, as it is inconceivable an approved Wren fitter would have knowingly installed most parts of the kitchen in an incorrect way. Is 'fraud' a correct label to use, legally?

Does anyone recommend what we should do next? We want compensation but don't really want to argue with them for months to get a couple of hundred pounds. This is an extreme case and they must be liable.

Are there types of lawyers who deal with this, and what about others who had kitchens installed by the same fitter? It is not easy to see flaws in installations, to know what is warped, what bolts were  included, whether cabinets are affixed to walls in a safe way, whether lighting cables are safe, etc. 

This may be the tip of an iceberg.

Fraud? Compensation?

It's not fraud - they just don't vet their approved fitters very well. And it's not compensation you need, it's the cost of putting it right.

When you wrote to Wren and they ignored you, what did you say to them in your initial correspondence? Did you ask them to send a different fitter to fit the kitchen properly? Did you give them a timescale to respond by? Was this complaint via email and following their correct complain channels (if they have any)? e.g. can you prove you asked them to fix it.

Under consumer rights, you have to give them an opportunity to correct their mistake.

If you're satisfied you asked them to correct their poor fitting and they totally ignored you, your next step is to send Wren a letter before action giving them 14 days to pay £XXX (the amount it has cost you to have the kitchen fitted correctly) and if you don't pay you'll take them to court. Keep the letter factual, with dates of the initial fitting, the conversation with the fitter about fitting it correctly, your correspondence with them about it not having fitted it correctly and the fact that you gave them the opportunity to finish the work and they didn't reply. I'd then include a copy of the quote you have from your own fitter showing how much it is now costing you to have the kitchen completed.

A court will award your rightful out of pocket expenses so claim these. Asking for additional compensation for hurt feelings will not look good. 

You seem to be assuming that Wren  contract/ employ  the fitter there ...

because if not  it;s like suing the Farmer  because the chef  burnt your steak 

 The OP is not clear on the contractual arrangement with regard to supply and fitting 

did the OP  purchase the  Kitchen (units  etc)  from Wren themselves ?

did the OP contract  directly with the fitter  for installation of the kitchen they (OP)  / a sales person from Wren had 'designed'  / specified  for them ? 

 or does Wren  (sub) contract  the fitters ?

It seems to be a reasonable assumption that Wren contract/employ the fitters because they say so in their T&Cs.

https://www.wrenkitchens.com/installation-terms

One of our subcontractors (the Fitter) who will be responsible for providing the installation services will contact you...

...we will ensure that our Fitter completes the standard installation package as follows: assembles, fits and installs the kitchen cabinet Products (including interiors,doors, drawers, handles, kickboards, cover panels, cornices and décor trim)

We warrant that on installation and for a period of 5 years thereafter (subject to the other provisions of the Terms) the installation services shall be performed with reasonable skill and care.

Other similar statements are scattered around the T&Cs