Aviva and Deed of assigment

Mrs_Worthington

I am looking for some advice on a situation I find myself in.
Back in 2004 when my children were minors they were bequeathed some money which my then financial advisor put into 2 investment bonds each that couldbe assigned to them at a later date in life. The policies were originally with Axa ( which became Friends life which became Aviva) and Norwich Union which rebranded as Aviva. We have already successfully encashed one of the policies to provide a deposit for a first home purchase, this was the Norwich Union policy. We are now seeking to assign the second policy (AXA). Aviva are insistent that I have to get my financial advisr to do a Deed of Assigment because Aviva were not the original investor.

Aviva has clarified that the Trust Deed used at the plan's inception was not an "Aviva" trust, which is why they cannot accept an Aviva Deed of Assignment to assign the policies to your daughter. Additionally, they noted some of the confusion arose because your children were listed on the Trust Deed but not on the policy itself.
As a result, Aviva have advised an external Deed of Assignment will be required to complete the assignment for your daughter so the funds can be paid directly to her.”

My financial advisor sold his business to another who have been very helpful in trying to help me with Aviva as their customer service and advice has had me goign around in circles for months. However the new financial advisor ahs been told I will have to instruct a solicitor to draft up a Deed of Assignment and they cannot no longer help me here either. This sounds like it could run into  a hefty sum. 
I am not getting anywhere with Aviva. I do not understand why they can't do the assignment and they can't explain it either I just get repeatedly told you need a deed of assignment but not ours. There were over a million policies transferred from Friends life to Aviva so I am hoping that maybe someone else can advise.
I have my letter drafted to the CEO ready and waiting!

Marcon

Mrs_Worthington said:

I am looking for some advice on a situation I find myself in.
Back in 2004 when my children were minors they were bequeathed some money which my then financial advisor put into 2 investment bonds each that couldbe assigned to them at a later date in life. The policies were originally with Axa ( which became Friends life which became Aviva) and Norwich Union which rebranded as Aviva. We have already successfully encashed one of the policies to provide a deposit for a first home purchase, this was the Norwich Union policy. We are now seeking to assign the second policy (AXA). Aviva are insistent that I have to get my financial advisr to do a Deed of Assigment because Aviva were not the original investor.

Aviva has clarified that the Trust Deed used at the plan's inception was not an "Aviva" trust, which is why they cannot accept an Aviva Deed of Assignment to assign the policies to your daughter. Additionally, they noted some of the confusion arose because your children were listed on the Trust Deed but not on the policy itself.
As a result, Aviva have advised an external Deed of Assignment will be required to complete the assignment for your daughter so the funds can be paid directly to her.”

My financial advisor sold his business to another who have been very helpful in trying to help me with Aviva as their customer service and advice has had me goign around in circles for months. However the new financial advisor ahs been told I will have to instruct a solicitor to draft up a Deed of Assignment and they cannot no longer help me here either. This sounds like it could run into  a hefty sum. 
I am not getting anywhere with Aviva. I do not understand why they can't do the assignment and they can't explain it either I just get repeatedly told you need a deed of assignment but not ours. There were over a million policies transferred from Friends life to Aviva so I am hoping that maybe someone else can advise.
I have my letter drafted to the CEO ready and waiting!

Why write to the CEO? The situation you 'find yourself in' is of your making, not Aviva's.

Aviva has explained to you what they need you to do and why (emboldened above). Maybe getting a quote for what is likely to be a straightforward job for a solicitor is your next step, rather than letting this get into saga territory, with you getting more upset by the day. Some fights aren't worth having when the solution is there and probably at a pretty modest cost.

poseidon1

Mrs_Worthington said:

I am looking for some advice on a situation I find myself in.
Back in 2004 when my children were minors they were bequeathed some money which my then financial advisor put into 2 investment bonds each that couldbe assigned to them at a later date in life. The policies were originally with Axa ( which became Friends life which became Aviva) and Norwich Union which rebranded as Aviva. We have already successfully encashed one of the policies to provide a deposit for a first home purchase, this was the Norwich Union policy. We are now seeking to assign the second policy (AXA). Aviva are insistent that I have to get my financial advisr to do a Deed of Assigment because Aviva were not the original investor.

Aviva has clarified that the Trust Deed used at the plan's inception was not an "Aviva" trust, which is why they cannot accept an Aviva Deed of Assignment to assign the policies to your daughter. Additionally, they noted some of the confusion arose because your children were listed on the Trust Deed but not on the policy itself.
As a result, Aviva have advised an external Deed of Assignment will be required to complete the assignment for your daughter so the funds can be paid directly to her.”

My financial advisor sold his business to another who have been very helpful in trying to help me with Aviva as their customer service and advice has had me goign around in circles for months. However the new financial advisor ahs been told I will have to instruct a solicitor to draft up a Deed of Assignment and they cannot no longer help me here either. This sounds like it could run into  a hefty sum. 
I am not getting anywhere with Aviva. I do not understand why they can't do the assignment and they can't explain it either I just get repeatedly told you need a deed of assignment but not ours. There were over a million policies transferred from Friends life to Aviva so I am hoping that maybe someone else can advise.
I have my letter drafted to the CEO ready and waiting!

Interestingly similar scenario arose for another OP who was told to get a solicitor to draft the relevant assignment deed in his case for a bond with ReAssure - see thread below

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81255168#Comment_81255168

Ironically you will see I suggested he use Aviva's proforma document in preference to the Prudential ( which I located on the internet), precisely because Aviva's deed was not specific to their own in house bonds and covered a multiplicity of scenarios! - link to Aviva's proforma document below

https://static.aviva.io/content/dam/document-library/adviser/individualprotection/al53006.pdf

However,  there is a distinction between your terminating  a trust and the other OP assigning a  bond in satisfaction of inheritance from a deceased estate.  The deceased's Will was the legal document backing up the subsequent deed of assignment in that case. 

In your case, you should have in place a 'deed of appointment' the effect of which is to formally appoint the trust capital to your son thereby terminating the trust in his favour. Aviva's deed of bond assignment in its strip down form does not of itself terminate the trust, it is the final stage in transferring bond ownership to your son, pursuant to a previously executed 'deed of appointment'. 

My suspicions are that Aviva refusal refers to the intermediate 'deed of appointment', terminating the trust rather than the deed of assignment.

Now I have found an Aviva Deed of appointment, but in its current form has clauses that do not apply to your son's trust since it makes reference to 'settlors retained benefits ' which would only apply if the trust was originally set up as a 'gift and loan' settlement with benefit of the loan retained by the settlor on trust termination. Now a trust lawyer could use it as an initial template for a bespoke 'appointment' deed for your circumstances,  but most lawyers prefer drafting the appointment from scratch  using the express powers in the original trust document. For information see Aviva's appointment deed below -

https://static.aviva.io/content/dam/document-library/adviser/general/gn05011c.pdf

It is unfortunate that with the disappearance of Axa as a standalone life company, all the technical support and library of pro forma documents disappeared with them. You are not going to get very far trying to strong arm Aviva to take legal responsibility for terminating a trust they did not create.

 As indicated, it does appear a solicitor will have to provide you with a bespoke 'deed of appointment' unless you feel you have the ability to create such a deed using Aviva's template as a guide together with express powers in the original trust document.  In any event once an executed deed of appointment is in place, you are then free to use Aviva's standard  'deed of assignment ' of the bond with impunity.

 

Mrs_Worthington

Thank you Poseidon_1 for shedding some light on the matter. This has been really helpful
FYI and anyone else who happens upon this thread if they find themselves in a similar situation. I have been quoted £1000-£1250+VAT per bond ( there are 3) for a solicitor to do a deed of assignment.
It seems very unfair to me that this was not listed in the charges back in 2004, even if it was only a possiblity it shoudl have been flagged. Unfortunately the original IFA and solicitor have long since retired so feeling that I have been left high and dry.

poseidon1

Mrs_Worthington said:

Thank you Poseidon_1 for shedding some light on the matter. This has been really helpful
FYI and anyone else who happens upon this thread if they find themselves in a similar situation. I have been quoted £1000-£1250+VAT per bond ( there are 3) for a solicitor to do a deed of assignment.
It seems very unfair to me that this was not listed in the charges back in 2004, even if it was only a possiblity it shoudl have been flagged. Unfortunately the original IFA and solicitor have long since retired so feeling that I have been left high and dry.

Your feedback will hopefully assist others in future. A vast number of these bond trusts have been sold over the years, and I suspect will become fashionable again as a means of mitigating  IHT soon to spread to people's pension pots.

However to be clear, does each bond have its own separate trust or each bond in a single trust? If a single trust for all bonds, only one deed required.

£1,000 fee per bond seems a bit steep, for what should be a largely repetitive excercise, unless  there are separate trusts where powers appointing capital in  each are markedly different. Did you forward the trust documents to the firms so that they could see what they would actually be dealing with?

I would expect a discount for 'bulk' repetitive work, but I also recognise that many younger solicitors may not have encountered these types of bond trusts during their careers so deed drafting in these circumstances maybe a bit of a learning process for some.

By contrast the other OP in his thread was quoted £2,000 for a simple deed  of assignment of a single bond. Geography matters here, London and South East law firms can be far more expensive than for the same services in the North.

It is a shame that you have suffered from the profound shrinkage in the technical support services following the disappearance of so many companies that sold these investment bond trust products in the past.

However, on the plus side I hope the investment returns for your son has nonetheless made the overall excercise worthwhile?  Many people in your circumstances simply left money in interest bearing bank/building society/NSI accounts for long periods  resulting in  relatively dismal returns. Hopefully the legal fees here do not take too much of the 'shine' off the bond returns.

 

Mrs_Worthington

poseidon1 said:

Mrs_Worthington said:

Thank you Poseidon_1 for shedding some light on the matter. This has been really helpful
FYI and anyone else who happens upon this thread if they find themselves in a similar situation. I have been quoted £1000-£1250+VAT per bond ( there are 3) for a solicitor to do a deed of assignment.
It seems very unfair to me that this was not listed in the charges back in 2004, even if it was only a possiblity it shoudl have been flagged. Unfortunately the original IFA and solicitor have long since retired so feeling that I have been left high and dry.

Your feedback will hopefully assist others in future. A vast number of these bond trusts have been sold over the years, and I suspect will become fashionable again as a means of mitigating  IHT soon to spread to people's pension pots.

However to be clear, does each bond have its own separate trust or each bond in a single trust? If a single trust for all bonds, only one deed required.

£1,000 fee per bond seems a bit steep, for what should be a largely repetitive excercise, unless  there are separate trusts where powers appointing capital in  each are markedly different. Did you forward the trust documents to the firms so that they could see what they would actually be dealing with?

I would expect a discount for 'bulk' repetitive work, but I also recognise that many younger solicitors may not have encountered these types of bond trusts during their careers so deed drafting in these circumstances maybe a bit of a learning process for some.

By contrast the other OP in his thread was quoted £2,000 for a simple deed  of assignment of a single bond. Geography matters here, London and South East law firms can be far more expensive than for the same services in the North.

It is a shame that you have suffered from the profound shrinkage in the technical support services following the disappearance of so many companies that sold these investment bond trust products in the past.

However, on the plus side I hope the investment returns for your son has nonetheless made the overall excercise worthwhile?  Many people in your circumstances simply left money in interest bearing bank/building society/NSI accounts for long periods  resulting in  relatively dismal returns. Hopefully the legal fees here do not take too much of the 'shine' off the bond returns.

 

Thank you again for your further advice.
It was one wills trust  covering 2 bonds 1 per child.
I have now had a much more detailed response ( and very quick) from Aviva as I was frustrated at the lack of detail so started at the top.
A Will Trust is a non AVIVA Deed and therefore it is our legal opinion that an AVIVA Deed of Assignment is deemed non-compatible with a Will Trust.  Which is why the only Deed that would be deemed acceptable would be a for a Deed of Assignment to be drawn up by a solicitor or a legal representative.
This does in fact contradict their earlier advice but it is progress. Thank again for the advice poseidon_1

poseidon1

Mrs_Worthington said:

poseidon1 said:

Mrs_Worthington said:

Thank you Poseidon_1 for shedding some light on the matter. This has been really helpful
FYI and anyone else who happens upon this thread if they find themselves in a similar situation. I have been quoted £1000-£1250+VAT per bond ( there are 3) for a solicitor to do a deed of assignment.
It seems very unfair to me that this was not listed in the charges back in 2004, even if it was only a possiblity it shoudl have been flagged. Unfortunately the original IFA and solicitor have long since retired so feeling that I have been left high and dry.

Your feedback will hopefully assist others in future. A vast number of these bond trusts have been sold over the years, and I suspect will become fashionable again as a means of mitigating  IHT soon to spread to people's pension pots.

However to be clear, does each bond have its own separate trust or each bond in a single trust? If a single trust for all bonds, only one deed required.

£1,000 fee per bond seems a bit steep, for what should be a largely repetitive excercise, unless  there are separate trusts where powers appointing capital in  each are markedly different. Did you forward the trust documents to the firms so that they could see what they would actually be dealing with?

I would expect a discount for 'bulk' repetitive work, but I also recognise that many younger solicitors may not have encountered these types of bond trusts during their careers so deed drafting in these circumstances maybe a bit of a learning process for some.

By contrast the other OP in his thread was quoted £2,000 for a simple deed  of assignment of a single bond. Geography matters here, London and South East law firms can be far more expensive than for the same services in the North.

It is a shame that you have suffered from the profound shrinkage in the technical support services following the disappearance of so many companies that sold these investment bond trust products in the past.

However, on the plus side I hope the investment returns for your son has nonetheless made the overall excercise worthwhile?  Many people in your circumstances simply left money in interest bearing bank/building society/NSI accounts for long periods  resulting in  relatively dismal returns. Hopefully the legal fees here do not take too much of the 'shine' off the bond returns.

 

Thank you again for your further advice.
It was one wills trust  covering 2 bonds 1 per child.
I have now had a much more detailed response ( and very quick) from Aviva as I was frustrated at the lack of detail so started at the top.
A Will Trust is a non AVIVA Deed and therefore it is our legal opinion that an AVIVA Deed of Assignment is deemed non-compatible with a Will Trust.  Which is why the only Deed that would be deemed acceptable would be a for a Deed of Assignment to be drawn up by a solicitor or a legal representative.
This does in fact contradict their earlier advice but it is progress. Thank again for the advice poseidon_1

This clarification does make a world of difference.

Evidently the monies left for your kids were by reference to specific trust provisions in the deceased Will rather than a trust document provided by the original investment bond provider. In that scenario, terminating the trust ( prior to assigning the bond) would indeed require a bespoke deed.

 If drafting such a deed from scratch it may as well do both jobs ie it becomes a Deed of Appointment and Assignment, thereby killing two birds with one stone. 

Mrs_Worthington

poseidon1 said:

Mrs_Worthington said:

poseidon1 said:

Mrs_Worthington said:

Thank you Poseidon_1 for shedding some light on the matter. This has been really helpful
FYI and anyone else who happens upon this thread if they find themselves in a similar situation. I have been quoted £1000-£1250+VAT per bond ( there are 3) for a solicitor to do a deed of assignment.
It seems very unfair to me that this was not listed in the charges back in 2004, even if it was only a possiblity it shoudl have been flagged. Unfortunately the original IFA and solicitor have long since retired so feeling that I have been left high and dry.

Your feedback will hopefully assist others in future. A vast number of these bond trusts have been sold over the years, and I suspect will become fashionable again as a means of mitigating  IHT soon to spread to people's pension pots.

However to be clear, does each bond have its own separate trust or each bond in a single trust? If a single trust for all bonds, only one deed required.

£1,000 fee per bond seems a bit steep, for what should be a largely repetitive excercise, unless  there are separate trusts where powers appointing capital in  each are markedly different. Did you forward the trust documents to the firms so that they could see what they would actually be dealing with?

I would expect a discount for 'bulk' repetitive work, but I also recognise that many younger solicitors may not have encountered these types of bond trusts during their careers so deed drafting in these circumstances maybe a bit of a learning process for some.

By contrast the other OP in his thread was quoted £2,000 for a simple deed  of assignment of a single bond. Geography matters here, London and South East law firms can be far more expensive than for the same services in the North.

It is a shame that you have suffered from the profound shrinkage in the technical support services following the disappearance of so many companies that sold these investment bond trust products in the past.

However, on the plus side I hope the investment returns for your son has nonetheless made the overall excercise worthwhile?  Many people in your circumstances simply left money in interest bearing bank/building society/NSI accounts for long periods  resulting in  relatively dismal returns. Hopefully the legal fees here do not take too much of the 'shine' off the bond returns.

 

Thank you again for your further advice.
It was one wills trust  covering 2 bonds 1 per child.
I have now had a much more detailed response ( and very quick) from Aviva as I was frustrated at the lack of detail so started at the top.
A Will Trust is a non AVIVA Deed and therefore it is our legal opinion that an AVIVA Deed of Assignment is deemed non-compatible with a Will Trust.  Which is why the only Deed that would be deemed acceptable would be a for a Deed of Assignment to be drawn up by a solicitor or a legal representative.
This does in fact contradict their earlier advice but it is progress. Thank again for the advice poseidon_1

This clarification does make a world of difference.

Evidently the monies left for your kids were by reference to specific trust provisions in the deceased Will rather than a trust document provided by the original investment bond provider. In that scenario, terminating the trust ( prior to assigning the bond) would indeed require a bespoke deed.

 If drafting such a deed from scratch it may as well do both jobs ie it becomes a Deed of Appointment and Assignment, thereby killing two birds with one stone. 

Thank you again! You are the only one who is making any sense.
I guess part of my confusion is that we did not have to do any of this when we set up the other bond and assigned it in full a couple fo years ago. I had assumed that the same principle would apply when it came to this one.
Thank you again.