Survey red items - window height on old property

hoster2

Hello. I’ve recently had a survey undertaken on a 1930s semi which has flagged a few red urgent items that came as a surprise.

The overall surveyor view was: 
The property was found to be in a GOOD condition for its age, there are several issues which require further monitoring and attention. 

The major red items listed are as follows:
1. Windows - no defects found. CR3 rating - Internal cill heights were not compliant with current legal safety limits.
2. Woodwork - no defects found. CR3 rating - stair balustrades and handrails do not comply with current building regulations and may affect safety and accessibility. Recommendation to upgrade these to meet current standards.

Are these red items normal to come up in a survey of an older property? 

Surely the expectation isn’t to undertake structural work to move all windows in a 90 year old property a few centimetres(?) higher to meet today’s current building control safety limits?
Similarly with the stair case and handrail, surely the expectation isn't to remove and replace with a new staircase that meets today’s standard?

Sorry if these are silly questions, just looking for some advice as a newbie. The survey has thrown me a curveball! 

silvercar

Agreed. There is probably a host of other things that don’t meet current regulations. Provided it met regulations at the time (and there would have been far fewer) you aren’t expected to bring things to current rules. If you had to do so everyone would be redoing electrics every couple of years! 

The surveyor is pointing these things out so you can’t take issue with them at a later date. I have a 1930s house, the balcony is “guarded” by 3 horizontal bars that anyone could slip between. Common sense says that we wouldn’t let a child play out on the balcony, but the surveyor pointed out that it doesn’t meet any regulations. Given modern building regs didn’t start until 1965 that’s hardly surprising!

tacpot12

If you have children, it would be worth reviewing the cill height issue. The problem is that with very low cills, small children can fall against the glass and break it, which might injure them badly. The alternative to raising the cills is to replace the glass with toughened glass to reduce the risk of injury. In a small, dark house, this might be a better option than reducing the size of the windows. 

BikingBud

tacpot12 said:

If you have children, it would be worth reviewing the cill height issue. The problem is that with very low cills, small children can fall against the glass and break it, which might injure them badly. The alternative to raising the cills is to replace the glass with toughened glass to reduce the risk of injury. In a small, dark house, this might be a better option than reducing the size of the windows. 

And if you don't have children neither of these would be a concern in the slightest. 

But as you mention the risk of breaking glass would be more due to basic glazing, something I would be much more concerned about, which doesn't appear to have been raised as an issue.

Why is the house small and dark?

So all observations monitored and discarded.

BTW did the surveyor mention that electrical sockets were at skirting board level and not up to modern standards? 

FreeBear

tacpot12 said:

If you have children, it would be worth reviewing the cill height issue. The problem is that with very low cills, small children can fall against the glass and break it, which might injure them badly. The alternative to raising the cills is to replace the glass with toughened glass to reduce the risk of injury. In a small, dark house, this might be a better option than reducing the size of the windows. 

Replacing the glass with toughened would be much cheaper than replacing windows. But if these are double glazed, regular sealed units are very difficult to break in comparison to a single sheet of glass.

With a 1930s house, I'd be looking to see if there is a lintel supporting the outer leaf of brick work - It was very common for houses built at that time to use the (timber) frame as structural support. Rip out the old windows or doors and bung in uPVC replacements without inserting a steel, and the brickwork above will start to collapse. FENSA have issued several briefings on this issue, but some DG companies appear not to have received it (can show you a door that Anglian Windows did a couple of years back where the brickwork has dropped).

hoster2

Thanks for the replies. The windows are uPVC, they are not new but are in good condition. I think the windows are only a couple of centimeters lower than current regs. I cant see how a child could break through one of the sealed glass units or how it being a couple of centimeters higher would help in that case. So is the bottom line that these things are ok but just need to be aware to replace with safety glass if/when we ever replace the windows?

FYI It’s a bright house and has also been rewired so electrics are up to code. 

hoster2

FreeBear said:

tacpot12 said:

If you have children, it would be worth reviewing the cill height issue. The problem is that with very low cills, small children can fall against the glass and break it, which might injure them badly. The alternative to raising the cills is to replace the glass with toughened glass to reduce the risk of injury. In a small, dark house, this might be a better option than reducing the size of the windows. 

Replacing the glass with toughened would be much cheaper than replacing windows. But if these are double glazed, regular sealed units are very difficult to break in comparison to a single sheet of glass.

With a 1930s house, I'd be looking to see if there is a lintel supporting the outer leaf of brick work - It was very common for houses built at that time to use the (timber) frame as structural support. Rip out the old windows or doors and bung in uPVC replacements without inserting a steel, and the brickwork above will start to collapse. FENSA have issued several briefings on this issue, but some DG companies appear not to have received it (can show you a door that Anglian Windows did a couple of years back where the brickwork has dropped).

Thanks for this. I’m not sure how I’d check for lintels. The windows are double glazed uPVC and I think they were replaced sometime between 2000 - 2006. The survey mentioned they were in good condition. 

FreeBear

hoster2 said:

FreeBear said:

tacpot12 said:

If you have children, it would be worth reviewing the cill height issue. The problem is that with very low cills, small children can fall against the glass and break it, which might injure them badly. The alternative to raising the cills is to replace the glass with toughened glass to reduce the risk of injury. In a small, dark house, this might be a better option than reducing the size of the windows. 

Replacing the glass with toughened would be much cheaper than replacing windows. But if these are double glazed, regular sealed units are very difficult to break in comparison to a single sheet of glass.

With a 1930s house, I'd be looking to see if there is a lintel supporting the outer leaf of brick work - It was very common for houses built at that time to use the (timber) frame as structural support. Rip out the old windows or doors and bung in uPVC replacements without inserting a steel, and the brickwork above will start to collapse. FENSA have issued several briefings on this issue, but some DG companies appear not to have received it (can show you a door that Anglian Windows did a couple of years back where the brickwork has dropped).

Thanks for this. I’m not sure how I’d check for lintels. The windows are double glazed uPVC and I think they were replaced sometime between 2000 - 2006. The survey mentioned they were in good condition. 

You can often spot the edge of the steel poking out of a fillet of mortar over the top of the window. Not a hard & fast rule - I installed a lintel over the front door here. Didn't have a lot of space, so the back & bottoms of the bricks forming the soldier course got trimmed back to fit snugly over the steel. Without removing the frame, you'll never know it is there..

A careful examination for cracks (see images below) would suggest that a lintel is missing from the outer leaf. You can also hold a straight edge (a long spirit level works) to see if bricks have dropped. It will be more pronounced in the middle. Any signs of repointing over a door or window would be another clue.

Mr.Generous

I wonder if the existing DG units have toughened glass already? Look for a kite mark or BS number stamped on the glass in a corner. It will be the old BS6206 or the newer EN12150

hoster2

I think they say B6206A on most (if not all) windows. Does this mean they don’t comply? Sorry if I’ve misunderstood. I’ll try take a picture. 

Mr.Generous

hoster2 said:

I think they say B6206A on most (if not all) windows. Does this mean they don’t comply? Sorry if I’ve misunderstood. I’ll try take a picture. 

Toughened to BS6206 can be class A, B or C. Class A is the highest. All UK made toughened glass is class A as far as I know, some imported might be class B or C. Glass from every batch made is tested to withstand impact, and then deliberately broken to show it shatters correctly. The BS mark shows they DO comply. Hope that helps.