SORN fine after vehicle was given to dealership to sell on consignment

Mildly_Miffed

Trade plates don't in themselves say or do anything about insurance. They cover lack of tax and (for brand new stuff on PDI) registration.

And, yes, all garages and dealers will have insurance covering cars in their care.

DullGreyGuy

CliveOfIndia said:

Car_54 said:

No complicated mechanics involved really - driving untaxed vehicles is the sole purpose of trade plates.

Thanks for clarifying.  Slightly off-topic, do the trade plates also mean the car is covered by the dealer's "blanket" insurance as well.  Again, I don't know the specifics, but always assumed they have some sort of policy that covers them for any car that's legally part of their stock?

Trade plates are only in relation to road tax.

Motor Trade Insurance covers all vehicles owned by someone in the motor trade as well as vehicles in their care, control and custody from their customers. It doesn't have to be owned by them, part of their stock etc, it can also be a car thats been dropped off for a repair etc

There will be a messy area on if the dealership informed their broker/insurer of the vehicle to have it entered under their policy on the MID. This isnt a requirement for customer vehicles but would have flagged any ANPR cameras as the MID check would have come back with no insurance and the vehicle SORNed. It may or may not have issues with CIE given there was no registered insurance and the vehicle was being used without trade plates despite being SORNed but CIE is a bit of a damp squib still other than for repeat offenders

Car_54

CliveOfIndia said:

Car_54 said:

No complicated mechanics involved really - driving untaxed vehicles is the sole purpose of trade plates.

Thanks for clarifying.  Slightly off-topic, do the trade plates also mean the car is covered by the dealer's "blanket" insurance as well.  Again, I don't know the specifics, but always assumed they have some sort of policy that covers them for any car that's legally part of their stock?

Trade plates only apply to tax. Inevitably, there are conditions: e.g.  you can use them for test drives, but not to collect parts, or use as a pool car..

For insurance, any reputable garage will have a 'trade' policy, with its own terms and conditions, usually confined to use for legitimate 'trade' purposes. AIUI most policies now require the trader to notify the insurer of reg. numbers: which wasn't the case when I was a lad.

Some try to interpret 'trade' purposes very generously.  I've seen cases on sites like pepipoo where a small trader is stopped on a night out, and his claim to be insured on his trade policy doesn't convinced anyone.

paul_c123

DullGreyGuy said:

CliveOfIndia said:

Car_54 said:

No complicated mechanics involved really - driving untaxed vehicles is the sole purpose of trade plates.

Thanks for clarifying.  Slightly off-topic, do the trade plates also mean the car is covered by the dealer's "blanket" insurance as well.  Again, I don't know the specifics, but always assumed they have some sort of policy that covers them for any car that's legally part of their stock?

Trade plates are only in relation to road tax.

Motor Trade Insurance covers all vehicles owned by someone in the motor trade as well as vehicles in their care, control and custody from their customers. It doesn't have to be owned by them, part of their stock etc, it can also be a car thats been dropped off for a repair etc

There will be a messy area on if the dealership informed their broker/insurer of the vehicle to have it entered under their policy on the MID. This isnt a requirement for customer vehicles but would have flagged any ANPR cameras as the MID check would have come back with no insurance and the vehicle SORNed. It may or may not have issues with CIE given there was no registered insurance and the vehicle was being used without trade plates despite being SORNed but CIE is a bit of a damp squib still other than for repeat offenders

Actually, traders don't inform their insurance company when they add/remove a vehicle. They have a logon to the MID system so they can do it directly themselves (and there is a requirement to do so within 14 days). For example, midasdirect.com is a portal to MID.

paul_c123

Also, it is possible to add the trade plate itself, onto MID.

NBLondon

paul_c123 said:

Selling on consignment is an unusual arrangement. Why did you choose this? The only advantage I can think of, is that you might make more money from the dealer taking say a fixed percentage once sold, rather than selling at trade to the dealer, then them selling it at retail and taking the profit in a conventional fashion.

Classic/ Rare and Collectable is one possibility - if it doesn't sell then the OP takes it back (or decides to put it in an auction).

But my question to the OP stands - what did the dealer say to do about insurance/tax?  They would presumably know if they were a specialist used to taking on consignment.

Kim_13

Mildly_Miffed said:

paul_c123 said:

Since you say you stopped the tax, may I ask - what did you do to stop it? 

The only way to cancel ongoing tax is to SORN a vehicle.

But simply not renewing it would leave it unlicenced.

This. I assume OP simply cancelled a Direct Debit - as tax is in complete months, they wouldn’t have been owed anything so that was the end of it as far as they were concerned,

Unfortunately the DVLA require either the SORNing of the car or for it to be moved officially into the trade. This removes you from the V5C but doesn’t issue another until the car reaches an end user - as the DVLA have the trader’s details from the transfer to use if say someone test driving the car is flashed by a speed camera. As you hadn’t sold your car to trade, this process wouldn’t have been followed in your case but would trigger the issuing of a refund if the tax had been paid in a single payment and a slip saying that the DVLA had updated their records and you were no longer the registered keeper. Until you get this, you are still responsible for making sure that the car is either taxed or SORNed.

Did you leave the V5C with the trader when you left the car? If you did, then you have grounds to try seeking reimbursement from the trader - once you handed over the V5C you could not SORN the car yourself as you need the reference number from the document to do it. The trader could have SORNed the car at any time and there would be no fine.

If you still have the V5C, then only you could have SORNed it so although it doesn’t reflect well on the trader that they didn’t tell you to SORN it (they should know the correct procedure better than customers after all) you’ll just have to take the fine on the chin.

Car_54

Kim_13 said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

paul_c123 said:

Since you say you stopped the tax, may I ask - what did you do to stop it? 

The only way to cancel ongoing tax is to SORN a vehicle.

But simply not renewing it would leave it unlicenced.

Did you leave the V5C with the trader when you left the car? If you did, then you have grounds to try seeking reimbursement from the trader - once you handed over the V5C you could not SORN the car yourself as you need the reference number from the document to do it. 

Photocopy?

DullGreyGuy

paul_c123 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

CliveOfIndia said:

Car_54 said:

No complicated mechanics involved really - driving untaxed vehicles is the sole purpose of trade plates.

Thanks for clarifying.  Slightly off-topic, do the trade plates also mean the car is covered by the dealer's "blanket" insurance as well.  Again, I don't know the specifics, but always assumed they have some sort of policy that covers them for any car that's legally part of their stock?

Trade plates are only in relation to road tax.

Motor Trade Insurance covers all vehicles owned by someone in the motor trade as well as vehicles in their care, control and custody from their customers. It doesn't have to be owned by them, part of their stock etc, it can also be a car thats been dropped off for a repair etc

There will be a messy area on if the dealership informed their broker/insurer of the vehicle to have it entered under their policy on the MID. This isnt a requirement for customer vehicles but would have flagged any ANPR cameras as the MID check would have come back with no insurance and the vehicle SORNed. It may or may not have issues with CIE given there was no registered insurance and the vehicle was being used without trade plates despite being SORNed but CIE is a bit of a damp squib still other than for repeat offenders

Actually, traders don't inform their insurance company when they add/remove a vehicle. They have a logon to the MID system so they can do it directly themselves (and there is a requirement to do so within 14 days). For example, midasdirect.com is a portal to MID.

That depends on the on the companies involved, certainly some brokers "offer it as a service", but yes with commercial policies the onus is on the insured for the declarations unlike personal lines. 

If the vehicle isnt the keeper/ owned by the garage, eg its just in for a complex repair or parts are on back order, then they wouldn't be required to register it with the MID under their policy. The OP appears not to have transferred the vehicle to the garage so they would retain the obligations of being the registered keeper.

TooManyPoints

The DVLA work on a very "black & white" principle. You're either the Registered Keeper or you are not. If you are, you are liable to ensure the vehicle is taxed and insured and if it is not you must declare it (and keep it) off the road.

The legislation is framed in this way as well.

If you have remained as the RK, you may have a case to seek some compensation from the dealer (if they misled you in any way). But the burden of any charges raised by the DVLA rests with you.