Can we sue car broker for breach of contract?

Grumpy_chap

Oxford312 said:

Thank you for the replies. Rather worrying that some seek to trivialise the issues raised. 

Rather than reply to each reply, to clarify

1. I liaised with the company. The cars are on 2 separate orders.

2. The salesperson did not at any time state they charge £250 commission for each car until l read the small print in the contracts they sent over to be signed. I would say that is underhand.

3. We have two contracts where the delivery method clearly states collection from a Ford dealership’s premises. 

4. We were told we could have consecutive registration No.s with no problem when ordering the cars.

5. On the basis the cars were built and delivered on time, we were told we could collect the cars on 1st March, again, this was at the point of placing the orders

6. The cars were ordered at the beginning of August.

7. I asked the two individuals l spoke to not to divulge my conversation with them to avoid the exact situation that happened. The people l spoke to had nothing to do with the relevant sales department. They spoke to the sales department who then contacted the broker and told them l had said something l did not say. By relaying false information, they have caused further issues between myself and the broker. They were asked not to divulge my conversation on the days in question. As they did not have permission as per my request they have broken GDPR laws.

Four months on, in December, we were initially told we couldn’t have consecutive registrations. This is conflicting with what we were told at the point of order.

Three weeks ago, we were told we couldn’t collect the cars, that they don’t deliver on a weekend and that we can’t collect the cars.

They have had five months to tell us none of what was promised wouldn’t happen. 

To those making assumptions, regardless if you think it is trivial, l was under the impression when you sign a contract that it is legally binding. The method of delivery and delivery date are written in the contract. They have admitted and confirmed that everything stated is what was on the contract. Do I assume that those trivialising the issues would think it would be okay if they delivered a car not on the contract? I think not.

I have already stated the contract states the penalties we would face if we cancelled the orders. There is no mention in the contract what they would be liable for, other than to say we would have the right for any issue to be dealt with in an English court. 

To the person who assumes we only want to cancel the contract, you are way off track. Having placed orders in August after negotiating since July, we have waited months for these cars and want them as per the contracts. 

As for the outcome, I thought it was quite clear by the last question l asked. On the basis we are being ignored, can we sue for breach of contract if they do not deliver the cars as per our contracts?

I certainly did not mean to trivialise any issues, nor do I think I did.  If it came across as though I was trivialising things, I apologise.

The two cars are on two separate orders.  Is there any written into both of the actual orders that references the consecutive number plates?  Or, indeed, anything that links the two orders as being two parts of a whole?

The commission element is confusing.  It is clear that a Broker has to receive a commission.  Obviously, it was unclear to you that the commission was in addition to the price quoted for the cars.  Given that the commission being paid is a standard practice, I am surprised that there was nothing that made this element clear at the time of order placement.  The Broker simply would not have things set up to obviously conceal this as they'd have arguments on every order.  Of the issues mentioned, this is probably the one that has the most robust chance of you succeeding with anything by way of a remedy.  Assuming, of course, that you did not have the information and simply no longer recall after the several months between order and the car being due.

Delivery / collection is odd as, usually, the delivery would cost more than collection from the Dealer.  Do you know where the Dealer is?  It could be that the Dealer is far away and that influences the offer of delivery.  Why is the delivery so significant?  (I note the comments about not delivering at the weekend.)

The GDPR issue is unclear to me.  It might be one to drop. 

Your required outcome remains undefined.

At one extreme, it would be to cancel the orders in full, suffer any penalties that result, and simply not have new cars.  You have stated this is not what you want.

At the other extreme, there is:
 - accept both cars without the consecutive number plates
 - pay the two commission fees
 - have the cars delivered to you
 - ignore the GDPR issues

The outcome might end up being between those two extremes.  What outcome do you want?

Herzlos

What are they offering in terms of delivery? Is it just that they've sourced the cars you want via another (or separate) dealers, and that's also why they can't guarantee consecutive plates?

Do you have the collection site and plates written into the contract somewhere you can evidence?

I'd assume that if you were registering the cars, you'd have the chance to go into the dealer and pick the plates from a list, but maybe that's an out of date mechanism and would only work if both cars were registered from the same dealer.

How big of a deal breaker are the collection and plates? Can you quantify any loss?

I could see you being able to claim back your losses, which would be the cost of 2 cheap private plates and the extra cost of collecting the cars.

Oxford312

Hi Grumpy_chap,

The trivialising comment wasn’t aimed at you, so apologies too if it came across that way. A couple of other posters think l should behave like an adult and that I’m making a mountain out of a molehill. For their benefit, l have behaved like an adult would, but it’s difficult to engage with someone when they are ignoring emails and phone calls, hence looking for advice here.

The two cars are on separate contracts signed by myself and my partner. That was the only interaction she had was signing the contract. All other parts of the deal were handled by me and the salesperson. All elements of the deal were discussed in the same emails to me regarding both cars. The collection from the dealership is written into both contracts. The registrations were agreed both in a phone call and in two separate emails. Their complaints officer has listened to the phone calls and read all emails and stated they did agree to collection from the dealer and also offered the consecutive registration No.s. But they still insist they won’t now allow collection, and can’t guarantee the registrations will be consecutive. I won’t bore you, but there are other items on the contract that l now have doubts they will honour as they have shown their word or written contract means nothing.

Apologies for any confusion regarding the commission. That has now been resolved. I included it initially to show everything wasn’t upfront regarding the commission. Before contacting this broker, l did in fact speak to another broker. They stated that they wouldn’t charge any commission from me and that any money they received was built into the total price we would pay for the cars. With the broker we placed the order with, there is nothing on their website that says they charge any commission. I only found out when they sent the contracts by email and l read the small print. That’s the first time l knew of it. I emailed them and asked why this hadn’t been mentioned. That is when l was told that they usually mention it during the phone calls and that it must have slipped their mind.

Regarding the delivery, yes it is odd as it would be cheaper for us to pick the cars up. We have been told different things by different members of staff. We were initially led to believe the cars were in Northampton. Last week, we were told they are actually in Essex. I stated that we would be happy to drive to Essex and pick them up, but they seem unwilling to do this. 

My concern at the moment is we have two signed contracts which l have told them we will be honouring. I explained all the background so anyone responding was aware of the issues that have arisen. It isn’t trivial and about No. plates or collection as some think. Regardless if they think it’s trivial, we signed a contract that they are now changing to suit them. To be honest, we don’t care about the No. plates or the delivery anymore, but if they ignore us and won’t engage, we don’t know if they’re going to honour the contract to supply the cars or not. That leaves is in worrying position.

Grumpy_chap

In terms of outcome, you seem to be saying that you will accept:
 - both cars to be supplied to you as ordered
 - accept the non-consecutive number plates
 - accept the cars being delivered to you
 - no remaining issue about the commission as that is resolved now.

Your latest comment about the delivery makes me think there is a rational explanation for a lot of this.  Certainly plausible comment that could explain reasons behind a great deal of the confusion and disappointment you are feeling

• The cars probably aren't anywhere, or at least nowhere that has (or will have once the ship docks) a customer facing collection point, hence the cars have to be delivered to you.
• The Broker has sourced the two cars, on two separate orders from the cheapest supply chain they can (and that has passed on to you as favourable price).
• The cheapest price was quite possibly one of the large nationwide dealership chains - think Perry's or Arnold Clark.
• The Dealership chain is probably then recording the two cars as being supplied by different Dealers (perhaps Northampton and Essex).  This would be done, for example, to balance sales volumes as best benefits the Dealership chain - perhaps this works to get both Dealership sites over a threshold for discount from the manufacturer or some such.
• The cars are being supplied from different parts of the country so you can't have the consecutive number plates.
• The cars being supplied from different parts of the country would mean two trips for you to collect, except you can't collect anyway because the cars are being supplied from the port where there is no customer-facing facility and neither car has ever been to Northampton or Essex as the nearest they got was Southampton Docks.  Or the cars are being supplied from Northampton, but the nearest they'll get to Northampton is Tilbury Docks.
• That also gives rational to the information you have been provided - it is not people lying (I tend to try to see the best in people), but in all the heat of the situation, comments about the cars locations have got confused or misinterpreted, or comments about one car have been thought to apply to both cars...

Relationships on the cars are obviously tense right now.
You say the latest communication is you wrote (emailed) to say you intend to honour the contract and expect the cars to be delivered as planned.  I trust that was precise and clear and not able to be interpreted as a cancellation.
You say that since that communication, the Broker / Dealer has been ignoring you.  In fairness, it is only three days and they may simply have nothing they feel they need to say right now.  Following a complaint, the Broker asked you to confirm whether you were cancelling the orders.  You wrote back to say you were not cancelling.  That might reasonably be deemed as sufficient for now.

I think the best way forward is to let a bit of time pass - maybe until next week - and then try to do some relationship building.  
Obviously, the situation has been stressful for you and there may have been some heated language used with emotion apparent.  Whether you feel it appropriate or not, some humility and concession may help in the next communication.  Maybe more friendly "very excited and looking forward to our new cars - please can you advise whether the delivery date can be confirmed yet, and also what are the registration numbers please as I am looking to arrange the insurance" rather than referencing back to the issues or anything that can be misinterpreted.

It is worth bearing in mind that you chose the supply route that maximises the MSE philosophy - the cheapest price you could secure.  That comes with the counter that the service level will not be the best.

The supply chain for cars is also very complex, so matters do occur.  Some example from our family:
 - I purchased a new car and the collection location was suddenly changed at the last minute.
 - My Mum purchase a new car via a Broker - it was frustrating that there was only ever a call centre and not a named person to deal with.  Also, they forced delivery, but she was happy with that.  Oh, and the delivery date changed several times right at the end of the process
 - Many years ago my Brother purchased a new car.  He needed a car quick, plus accepted the incentives linked to buying a "stock" car.  After the order was placed (Wednesday) for collection that weekend, he received an "availability update" that the car was in stock, but in Italy and would not be shipped until the Dealer had sufficient quantity of cars to transport that filled a certain amount of ship-space.  I think that 3 days turned out to be 3 months.

I think patience and understanding that the "other side" of the car supply chain does not function as well as the glossy brochures imply will just be the best way to approach this.  Then you will soon have the two new cars and can focus on enjoying them

HillStreetBlues

If the dealer is being honest and there has been an supervening event that has made collection impossible, and you have turned down their offer of a delivery, then it's possible they can void the contract under frustration.

Oxford312

Hi Grimpy_ chap,

Many thanks for your reply.

As far as your first paragraph, we have no choice but to agree to this as they seem unwilling to compromise. 

The cars are from the same dealer and are in the same place as of this moment. The point is, the delivery sales manager did say that we could still collect the cars as per the agreement. It is the complaints officer who seems to be digging their heels in and being difficult. The sales manager admitted that we shouldn’t have been told that we could collect the cars, but then said we could collect them or she would have them delivered. We were given the choice. As l say, it is the complaints officer who has stepped in saying we can’t collect them.

Regarding the contract, l sent a perfectly civil email clearly stating we have bought numerous cars over the years, and that we have never reneged on a deal we have made, and that we fully intended purchasing the cars as planned. There is definitely no way it could be misunderstood.

i sent an email late on Monday evening asking if they’d received my email. I left it until just after 5pm as they close at 6pm on Tuesday and phoned as l still didn’t receive a reply to my email on Monday. When l was phoned, l was told both the sales manager and the complaints officer had already one home.

Believe me, l have bent over backwards trying to keep things amicable as l just 2wnt everything resolved and have our cars delivered. And, that is despite the fact it is their sales person who cocked up the order and agreement which as l have said they have admitted to. I don’t think it’s too much to expect for them to at least make an effort to meet us halfway. I have in fact gone down the very route you suggested to try and put things back on an amicable track, and have stated we would just like to move on with a mutual agreement to deliver the cars we have so been looking forward to for months. 

i will take your advice and wait until next week. Thanks again

Grumpy_chap

Oxford312 said:

the delivery sales manager did say that we could still collect the cars as per the agreement. It is the complaints officer who seems to be digging their heels in and being difficult. 

I recognise that dealing with a car Broker can be difficult as you don't get a single point of contact who manages your order for you.  At best, the actual Broker is like dealing with a call centre.
You also seem to have been contacting the Dealer directly.  That may be correct.
It might also be worth checking the paperwork you have whether all contact should be via the Broker.
Ordinarily, I'd say contacting the Broker and the Dealer separately might create extra confusion, but I do realise with car purchases via a Broker that may not be the case in so far as the Broker says to contact the Dealer, but then they give you different messages  

Hope you get it all sorted amicably and enjoy the cars eventually.

Mildly_Miffed

Oxford312 said:

The two cars are on separate contracts signed by myself and my partner. That was the only interaction she had was signing the contract.

So the contract for her car is between her and the dealer.

And you're complaining they're talking to her?

Regarding the delivery, yes it is odd as it would be cheaper for us to pick the cars up. We have been told different things by different members of staff. We were initially led to believe the cars were in Northampton. Last week, we were told they are actually in Essex. I stated that we would be happy to drive to Essex and pick them up, but they seem unwilling to do this.

The cars are not necessarily at a customer-facing facility.

The question is whether they are delivered from Essex to the dealer in Northampton, then you collect them - or whether they're delivered straight from Essex to you.

Given that it's Essex, the probable answer is that the cars are being supplied and prepared through Ford UK's fleet delivery centre. This would also answer why the sequential plates cannot be guaranteed - they'll be on Ex75xxx plates, registered by Ford UK, rather than on Kx75xxx plates by a Northampton-based dealer.

Why is collection, rather than delivery, so important to you?

Oxford312

they'll be on Ex75xxx plates

I certainly hope they’re not, otherwise we’d have a bit of explaining to do if we get stopped by the old bill 😉

Mildly_Miffed

<ahem> That should, of course, be 74.