Night storage heaters and the costs

RedFraggle

My Quantums heat my home at 21 from 8 am to 10:30 pm daily and do not run out of heat.

For those using old style NSH are you turning the output down overnight and gradually increasing it in the day? My old style NSHs needed that. They may also be seized and not closing fully

GibbsRule_No3.

What make are your "new" storage heaters?  My HA installed new NSH's a year ago but they did install Quantum Dimplex RF these last all day as they are smart and charge for the temperature. I also have a Boost option if I decide I am not warm enough for any reason, I was suffering with a cold last week and did a Boost for a couple of hours one day, due to feeling cold, not sure if I was any colder or due to my cold I just felt I needed to be warmer. 

Gerry1

What's the make and model number of each heater?

Does each heater have one mains connection or two?

37pisntenough

Gerry1 said:

What's the make and model number of each heater?

Does each heater have one mains connection or two?

They are Heatstore model HSDHHR125.

Two connections. One to off-peak and one to full rate. I can track the usage and see that they are charging at off peak rates between 12:00 and 7:00am

37pisntenough

GibbsRule_No3. said:

What make are your "new" storage heaters?  My HA installed new NSH's a year ago but they did install Quantum Dimplex RF these last all day as they are smart and charge for the temperature. I also have a Boost option if I decide I am not warm enough for any reason, I was suffering with a cold last week and did a Boost for a couple of hours one day, due to feeling cold, not sure if I was any colder or due to my cold I just felt I needed to be warmer. 

The make is Heatstore. Mine also have a boost function which produces almost nothing! The electrician who had a look showed me that this is activated by charging part of the heat storage and takes about 30 minutes to warm up. Once warm they don't product much. 

Scot_39

37pisntenough said:

Swipe said:

37pisntenough said:

Swipe said:

My point still stands.

Do you mean all night storage heaters are old style?
It's a contradiction in terms if that's your point.
If it isn't then your post is irrelevant to the conversation!! 

I mean you need to lower your temperature expectations or get the landlord to improve your insulation. £25 of electricity will generate £25 of heat.

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually in my case £25 of electricity generates the same amount of usable heat as £10 of electricity!

To explain, If I use night storage heaters it costs me £25 a day but runs out by 7:00pm If I use convection heaters during the day it costs £10 a day and not only keeps the same temperature but also keeps it up to temperature in the evening.
This was all in the previous posts. 

I was trying to see if others have the same issues and if there was a problem in the way I was using the night storage heaters. The conversation seems to have veered away from that as they do on these forums.

No it does not - it just potentially generates it on a different timescale.

The nsh uses the same electrical conversion to heat efficiency in its elements as the convection heaters.  The problem is it hides it under the thermal storage of the core.  Slow to heat  - you can count it literally in hours before starts to generate much if any output - buf it delivers that heat over several hours more.  On e7 charge in 7, output for at least upto next charge - 17 -  24 hrs later - residually at lower levels even longer.

And on a good e7 tariff you  are buying nsh stored energy at say c15p  - but your convector energy at say 30p per unit.  Vs at those (edg jan 25 dd type rates) vs single rate on c25p.

So £25 will buy you not 2.5x the energy of your £10 - but 5x  the energybat thosecsort of e7 rates.

And if you have smets2 metering snug from octopus - 9p off peak for 6+1 in afternoon might be an even cheaper option than e7.


The difference is it will be releasing that energy on different timescales.

And possibly not when you want a warm room.

Like if out all day - as the nsh discharge heat to the room - you might argue you are not benifitting.

Where as if you come home switch on a relative high powered convection plug in - you will get instant heat on demand.

But I can pretty much guarantee that over 24 hours the nsh are probably releasing more energy and keeping a higher average room temperature - £ for £.

Which doesnt make them cheaper overall.  As that might mean higher total energy costs than say using plugs ins for a couple -> several of hours early evening only heating.

They - especially older non air thermostat regulated lot 20 or even better full hhr rated models - don't suit everyone's energy need profile.

Older nsh - sone call them lossy - models used to be called comfort models - designed for people in all day as het all day.  Often at highest temperature so potentially output power in early hours of the morning- like peaking on 7am if not earlier when not charging for full 7 hrs.


My heaters the charge stabilises over a few cycles maybe equiv of 2-3 nights on e7 - so doesn't take the same charge on following charge cycles / nights. 

And they hold and release some heat for days.  You can feel the case isn't that raw to the touch cold metal - but not a warm air stream.

Try using just 1 and not another in an otherwise similarly cold space for a couple of days - then turn it off and compare tge case temps - for a couple of days - likely you'll feel that residual heat - still giving a little but likely not enough to raise room temps to your target.

2. Even at off peak rates they cost a lot to use. If I switch on all 4 then it's about £25 to charge them.

As above not all the heat from an initial charge from cold is released in the short term.  Is that a day q cost or a repeat cost ?



Put simply you have to heat the bricks - in modern heaters to around 100 degrees - from say ambient sub 20 maybe sub 15C by time most will turn them on  - and they won't release all of it even over a full day.

The biggest charge taken on my old manual dial and non air thermostat non fan assisted storage  heaters is when switch on after days off.  Or on big increases to the input dial..

They give out very little heat for tge first few hours of heating- and that heat will hang around disappearing into room at an increasing low rate.


You need to learn how to use nsh.  They aren't - especially older models - ideally meant to be switched on off daily or used for short periods.

Even at max temp and max vent air flow my largest nsh can only generate c1kW power.  My 2 in hallways - half the size.



Not sure how long you let heaters run for re your £25/10 figures
If you leave your 4 nsh on for several days what happens to your £25 ?
If you let tge nsh fully cool over 2-3 days and continue to use the convection heaters - what happens to the £10 ?

There could be some initial charge out for little heat - and residual output reducing energy needed by those convection heaters.

And what are your true room temperatures doing over 24 hours - not just say mid evening etc. - and the full room - not just right next to plug in or nsh panel - in both cases ?

You mention recent install, but that might not mean recent design.

You mention boost - is that a dial to control air flow - often labelled output on old designs  - or as sone modern lot 20 and hhr have - a seperare upto 1 kW powered in case of Dimplex Quantums - hybrid daytime heater - like a convection heater - or boost element still in core (like Elnurs ecombi  iirc ).


Electrical heating is expensive if run to high temps 24/7 - it's really easy to do that with older nsh - and the little guides on pamphlets or under dial contol flaps - tens to assume that's what they will do.  So start with input on max etc is advice on two sets of 90s generation models I have.


But I find it best to use my nsh to heat to lower average temps c14 c16 in living room and boost say in evenings for living room  if required especially if out regularly in daytime.  I use a timer model oil filled rad on last hour of my afternoon off peak to 4pm on my e10  - and again 1st hour of evening off peak at 8pm to boost lr a little when needed. 

Right now only 2 of my 3 nsh are on on min - 2 weeks ago all 3 were on upto over half input charge settings dial - anc using c4x tgevenergy for same low room temps.

And they are not set and forget - unless modern self learning.  I need to look ahead at weather forecasts and tweak my settings every 2-3 days on average.

If you get your specific model - and give say an idea of your ideal temperature profile - are you in all day for instance and how many rooms do you need at low say anti mould or even anti frost / or typicwl comfort (18-21 say as nhs advice) temps during those hours  we might be able to advise on better settings to better operate your heaters.

But as above - like for lije over 24 hrs - full room / not just local air temps adjascent to plug ins - nsh should be significantly cheaper to run on a decent tariff.

The problem is you cannot have full flexibility on older models at any rate - on those temp profiles over 24 hrs.



See 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

By at @QrizB - discusses the implications of equilibrium costs - same total yearltpy kWh demand at typical energy rates.

But if only using pkug ins for a few hours - you wont necessarily be heating the full room - air and walls / structure if you like.
And so for you and many others - you could be right nsh may not be the cheapest option.

 

37pisntenough

Scot_39 said:

37pisntenough said:

Swipe said:

37pisntenough said:

Swipe said:

My point still stands.

Do you mean all night storage heaters are old style?
It's a contradiction in terms if that's your point.
If it isn't then your post is irrelevant to the conversation!! 

I mean you need to lower your temperature expectations or get the landlord to improve your insulation. £25 of electricity will generate £25 of heat.

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually in my case £25 of electricity generates the same amount of usable heat as £10 of electricity!

To explain, If I use night storage heaters it costs me £25 a day but runs out by 7:00pm If I use convection heaters during the day it costs £10 a day and not only keeps the same temperature but also keeps it up to temperature in the evening.
This was all in the previous posts. 

I was trying to see if others have the same issues and if there was a problem in the way I was using the night storage heaters. The conversation seems to have veered away from that as they do on these forums.

No it does not - it just potentially generates it on a different timescale.

The nsh uses the same electrical conversion to heat efficiency in its elements as the convection heaters.  The problem is it hides it under the thermal storage of the core.  Slow to heat  - you can count it literally in hours before starts to generate much if any output - buf it delivers that heat over several hours more.  On e7 charge in 7, output for upto 24.

And on a good e7 tariff you  are buying nsh stored energy at say c15p  - but your convector energy at say 30p per unit.

So £25 will buy you not 2.5x the energy but 5x the energy.

And if you have smets2 metering snug 2 - 9p off peak for 6+1 in afternoon might be an even better option.


The difference is it will be releasing it on different timescales.

And possibly not when you want a warm room.

Like if out all day - as the nsh discharge hest to the room - you might argue you are not benifitting.

Where as if you come home switch on a relative high powered convection plug in - you get instant heat on demand.

But I can pretty much guarantee that over 24 hours the nsh are probably releasing more energy and keeping a higher average room temperature - £ for £.

Which might mean higher total energy than say using plugs ins for a couple - several of hours early evening.

They - especially older non tgermostatic rrgulated or even better full hhr rated models - don't suit everyone's energy need profile.

Older lossy models used to be called comfort models - designed for people in all day as het all day.  Often at highest output in early hours of the morning- like peaking on 7am if not earlier when not charging for full 7 hrs.


My heaters the charge stabilises happens over a few cycles maybe equiv of 2-3 nights on e7 - so doesn't take the same charge on following charge cycles / nights. 

And they hold and release some heat for days.

Try using just 1 and not another in an otherwise similarly cold space for a couple of days - then turn it off and compare tge case temps - you'll feel that residual heat - still giving a little but likely not enough to raise room temps to your target.

2. Even at off peak rates they cost a lot to use. If I switch on all 4 then it's about £25 to charge them.

As above not all the heat from an initial charge from cold is released in the short term.



Put simply you have to heat the bricks - in modern heaters to around 100 degrees - from say ambient sub 20 maybe sub 15C by time most will turn them on  - and they won't release all of it even over a full day.

The biggest charge taken on my old manual dial and non air thermostat non fan assisted storage  heaters is when switch on after days off.  Or on big increases to the input dial..

They give out very little heat for tge first few hours of heating- and that heat will hang around disappearing into room at an increasing low rate.


You need to learn how to use nsh.  They aren't - especially older models - ideally meant to be switched on off daily or used for short periods.

Even at max temp and max vent air flow my largest nsh can only generate c1kW power.  My 2 in hallways - half the size.



Not sure how long you let heaters run for re your £25/10 figures
If you leave your 4 nsh on for several days what happens to your £25 ?
If you let tge nsh fully cool over 2-3 days and continue to use the convection heaters - what happens to the £10 ?

There could be some initial charge out for little heat - and residual output reducing energy needed by those convection heaters.

And what are your true room temperatures doing over 24 hours - not just say mid evening etc. - and the full room - not just right next to plug in or nsh panel - in both cases ?

You mention recent install, but that might not mean recent design.

You mention boost - is that a dial to control air flow - often labelled output on old designs  - or as sone modern lot 20 and hhr have - a seperare upto 1 kW powered in case of Dimplex Quantums - hybrid daytime heater - like a convection heater - or boost element still in core (like Elnurs ecombi  iirc ).


Electrical heating is expensive if run to high temps 24/7 - it's really easy to do that with older nsh - and the little guides on pamphlets or under dial contol flaps - tens to assume that's what they will do.  So start with input on max etc is advice on two sets of 90s generation models I have.


But I find it best to use my nsh to heat to lower average temps c14 c16 in living room and boost say in evenings for living room  if required especially if out regularly in daytime.  I use a timer model oil filled rad on last hour of my afternoon off peak to 4pm on my e10  - and again 1st hour of evening off peak at 8pm to boost lr a little when needed. 

Right now only 2 of my 3 nsh are on on min - 2 weeks ago all 3 were on upto over half input charge settings dial - anc using c4x tgevenergy for same low room temps.

And they are not set and forget - unless modern self learning.  I need to look ahead at weather forecasts and tweak my settings every 2-3 days on average.

If you get your specific model - and give say an idea of your ideal temperature profile - are you in all day for instance and how many rooms do you need at low say anti mould or even anti frost / or typicwl comfort (18-21 say as nhs advice) temps during those hours  we might be able to advise on better settings to better operate your heaters.

But as above - like for lije over 24 hrs - full room / not just local air temps adjascent to plug ins - nsh should be significantly cheaper to run on a decent tariff.

The problem is you cannot have full flexibility on older models at any rate - on those temp profiles over 24 hrs.



See 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

By at @QrizB - discusses the implications of equilibrium costs - same total yearltpy kWh demand at typical energy rates.

But if only using pkug ins for a few hours - you wont necessarily be heating the full room - air and walls / structure if you like.
And so for you and many others - you could be right nsh may not be the cheapest option.

 

Wow, that's a lot of words some of which I don't agree with. 

My view after looking at things is that, as your last sentence says, night storage heaters don't economically work for me.  

37pisntenough

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this. 

I've found my answers now and in spite of others having different experiences I have switched off my night storage heaters and will be using plug in heaters.

This has several advantages to me
1. As I'm away quite often I can get instant heat when I return rather than waiting until the next day. By using WiFi connected heaters I can warm the rooms up I need remotely so when I get back the house is warm.
2. It reduces my costs!
3. I'm not storing heat (and paying for it) that is either insufficient or wasted.

Thanks everyone for the views.

bob2302

37pisntenough said:

Gerry1 said:

What's the make and model number of each heater?

Does each heater have one mains connection or two?

They are Heatstore model HSDHHR125.

These have a capacity of  19.3 kWh; if you are charging 4 at £25 a night, that implies a unit rate of at least 32p/kwh.

37pisntenough

bob2302 said:

37pisntenough said:

Gerry1 said:

What's the make and model number of each heater?

Does each heater have one mains connection or two?

They are Heatstore model HSDHHR125.

These have a capacity of  19.3 kWh; if you are charging 4 at £25 a night, that implies a unit rate of at least 32p/kwh.

I'm not sure about you arithmetic here!

4x19.3 = 77.2kwh total

That is charged over 7 hours which implies a rate of less than11p per kwh (77.2 divided by 7). The rate is actually 15p per kwh so maybe it costs me more than I thought.