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Does this fall under section 75?

Long story sorry. 

Hired a professional landscaper to remove old patio, install new patio and also grassed area. 

Paid materials up front (£4.5k) with agreement to pay labour (£4.3k) once job complete. £4.5k paid by bank transfer.

Materials delivered to my drive the day before the job was due to start and then we were hit with heavy snow. So no work started for week 1. Was due to take 2 weeks and I knew from conversations he had another job to do after mine. 

Day 2 of week 2 work started and continued for next 4 days. 3 labourers working on the garden at a time. We were constantly told we couldn’t walk on it yet so could only look through the window and as I was working all those days was getting home when it was already going dark but what could see looked good. Asked to pay an extra £500 by bank transfer for materials as some were underestimated. 

End of week entire garden had been removed and looked a mess but was assured it’s going to look worse before it looks better. 

Work wasn’t finished so needed to continue into the next week. Day 1 of week 3 turned up alone and said that the other 2 had refused to come as they hadn’t been paid. Payment was due end of week 2 but work wasn’t finished and agreement was labour paid when work finished. Work continued very slowly and he kept saying there were jobs he couldn’t do alone and leaving early as result. 

More and more pressure to pay some labour costs or job couldn’t be finished as the other 2 labourers wouldn’t come. Complaints that other job had to be delayed so no income for the labourers hence they won’t return. Eventually agreed to pay £2.8k (labour costs for the 2 refusing to come) so that work could continue. Paid this via credit card. 

Work continued day 2-5 of week 3 with all 3 labourers. Still being told can’t walk on it and still only seeing it in the dark after work. Weekend came and got to see the garden in the daylight and was horrified at how bad it looked. Raised this with the landscaper to be told don’t worry it’s not finished yet. 

Day 1 of week 4 came home from work to find all equipment gone from the drive so assumed it was finished. Went outside to finally see it properly and found multiple issues. The major one being that the patio was installed too high and didn’t meet the side path. The patio was loose and wobbly when walked on, they had paved over a manhole that used to have a recessed cover on it, many of the flag stones were chipped and had been laid anyway, the grout was all blown out and covering the surfaces leaving big gaps, it wasn’t level and parts sticking up etc. 

We refused to make the final payment (£1.5k) and raised these issues. They have since argued all the concerns we have raised, saying it’s fine etc. We have had 2 more people come and look at it both of which say the entire patio needs to come up and be relaid with quotes of £5.5k and £6.2k to do this work. 

Since then the original company isn’t communicating with us. I am planning on filing a section 75 claim but wanted to ask:

1 - Does this fall under section 75 as it’s a service rather than goods?
2 - Can I only claim the £2.8k paid on credit card or can I claim the payments made via bank transfer too? Same bank as the credit card is with.
3 - If I can claim more than the £2.8k do I claim the full £7.8k paid to the original landscaper or just the cost of fixing it? Both of these quotes state that more work may be needed depending on what they find when they lift the patio so I’m concerned it will end up costing more than quoted. 
4 - Am I obligated to go with the cheaper quote to limit my loss or can I go for the one that has better reviews? 
«13

Comments

  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 2,085 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 3 February at 1:32PM
    I don't think it matters for the purposes of s75 whether the claim is in respect of goods or services.

    What might matter is that s75 doesn't apply to a claim insofar as it relates "... to any single item to which the supplier has attached a cash price not exceeding £100..."

    Assuming s75 applies I believe you can claim all eligible payments regardless of you paid.

    How has the overall amount you've paid paid been itemised on invoices etc?
  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 16,976 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    This seems unclear.

    I think the CC could argue that the materials and the labour are two separate items.  If successful, that may limit any claim to £4.3k paid for labour.

    I can also see that the CC could argue the £2.8k that was paid by CC was for labour that had already been provided, so the payment after the event might constitute an acceptance that the labour was provided to an acceptable standard.

    How are invoices / receipts set out?


  • sheramber
    sheramber Posts: 20,914 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 10,000 Posts I've been Money Tipped! Name Dropper
    Presumably the OP still has the materials that were fitted. 
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 17,507 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 3 February at 4:27PM

    1 - Does this fall under section 75 as it’s a service rather than goods?
    2 - Can I only claim the £2.8k paid on credit card or can I claim the payments made via bank transfer too? Same bank as the credit card is with.
    3 - If I can claim more than the £2.8k do I claim the full £7.8k paid to the original landscaper or just the cost of fixing it? Both of these quotes state that more work may be needed depending on what they find when they lift the patio so I’m concerned it will end up costing more than quoted. 
    4 - Am I obligated to go with the cheaper quote to limit my loss or can I go for the one that has better reviews? 

    Taking a step back - section 75 makes the credit card company jointly liable for your losses that result from a breach of contract.

    In simplified terms (based on what you've said plus a few assumptions made by me)...
    • You contracted with the landscaper "to remove old patio, install new patio and also grassed area" for £9k.
    • It sounds like you've paid £7.8k to the landscaper and you might have to spend another £5.5k to get the job finished. £7.8k + £5.5k = £13.3k.
    • So your losses resulting from the landscapers breach of contract would be £13.3k - £9k = £4.3k.
    So you'd claim £4.3k from the credit card company.




    But... in reality, there would be lots of complexity. For example, 

    • You'd need to demonstrate that you gave the landscaper reasonable opportunity to put the problems right

    Plus, the credit card company would want to see
    • Proof of the original contract with the landscaper (e.g. Ideally a written contract with details of exactly what the landscaper was supposed to do)
    • An expert's report that confirms that the landscaper didn't do what he was contracted to do
    • A detailed quote from another contractor saying what they will do to put the problems right



    But the devil is in the detail. It depends exactly what your contract with the landscaper said, and what happened, etc

    And if the contract wasn't written down in full detail, you might claim the contract was to do a, b and c - but the landscaper claims it was to do x, y and z. Which will make winning a claim far more difficult.


  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 18,320 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 3 February at 5:47PM
    Long story sorry. 

    Hired a professional landscaper to remove old patio, install new patio and also grassed area. 

    Paid materials up front (£4.5k) with agreement to pay labour (£4.3k) once job complete. £4.5k paid by bank transfer.

    Materials delivered to my drive the day before the job was due to start and then we were hit with heavy snow. So no work started for week 1. Was due to take 2 weeks and I knew from conversations he had another job to do after mine. 

    Day 2 of week 2 work started and continued for next 4 days. 3 labourers working on the garden at a time. We were constantly told we couldn’t walk on it yet so could only look through the window and as I was working all those days was getting home when it was already going dark but what could see looked good. Asked to pay an extra £500 by bank transfer for materials as some were underestimated. 

    End of week entire garden had been removed and looked a mess but was assured it’s going to look worse before it looks better. 

    Work wasn’t finished so needed to continue into the next week. Day 1 of week 3 turned up alone and said that the other 2 had refused to come as they hadn’t been paid. Payment was due end of week 2 but work wasn’t finished and agreement was labour paid when work finished. Work continued very slowly and he kept saying there were jobs he couldn’t do alone and leaving early as result. 

    More and more pressure to pay some labour costs or job couldn’t be finished as the other 2 labourers wouldn’t come. Complaints that other job had to be delayed so no income for the labourers hence they won’t return. Eventually agreed to pay £2.8k (labour costs for the 2 refusing to come) so that work could continue. Paid this via credit card. 

    Work continued day 2-5 of week 3 with all 3 labourers. Still being told can’t walk on it and still only seeing it in the dark after work. Weekend came and got to see the garden in the daylight and was horrified at how bad it looked. Raised this with the landscaper to be told don’t worry it’s not finished yet. 

    Day 1 of week 4 came home from work to find all equipment gone from the drive so assumed it was finished. Went outside to finally see it properly and found multiple issues. The major one being that the patio was installed too high and didn’t meet the side path. The patio was loose and wobbly when walked on, they had paved over a manhole that used to have a recessed cover on it, many of the flag stones were chipped and had been laid anyway, the grout was all blown out and covering the surfaces leaving big gaps, it wasn’t level and parts sticking up etc. 

    We refused to make the final payment (£1.5k) and raised these issues. They have since argued all the concerns we have raised, saying it’s fine etc. We have had 2 more people come and look at it both of which say the entire patio needs to come up and be relaid with quotes of £5.5k and £6.2k to do this work. 

    Since then the original company isn’t communicating with us. I am planning on filing a section 75 claim but wanted to ask:

    1 - Does this fall under section 75 as it’s a service rather than goods?
    2 - Can I only claim the £2.8k paid on credit card or can I claim the payments made via bank transfer too? Same bank as the credit card is with.
    3 - If I can claim more than the £2.8k do I claim the full £7.8k paid to the original landscaper or just the cost of fixing it? Both of these quotes state that more work may be needed depending on what they find when they lift the patio so I’m concerned it will end up costing more than quoted. 
    4 - Am I obligated to go with the cheaper quote to limit my loss or can I go for the one that has better reviews? 
    Who did you pay for the material?
    Any invoice stating exactly what you were paying for & breakdown of bill?

    In reality this is one to talk to your CC provider about, as I can see them wanting a lot of info here. So better to get exactly what they want, rather than us guessing, as not all CC work in the same way, despite this being a legal right. 

    As they could decide that they will refund in full or part, or even pay for a quote you got to fix the work.
    Life in the slow lane
  • DullGreyGuy
    DullGreyGuy Posts: 15,568 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    eddddy said:
    But... in reality, there would be lots of complexity. For example, 

    • You'd need to demonstrate that you gave the landscaper reasonable opportunity to put the problems right

    Plus, the credit card company would want to see
    • Proof of the original contract with the landscaper (e.g. Ideally a written contract with details of exactly what the landscaper was supposed to do)
    • An expert's report that confirms that the landscaper didn't do what he was contracted to do
    • A detailed quote from another contractor saying what they will do to put the problems right
    No you dont, Section 75 makes the creditor jointly and severally liable with the merchant, there is no requirement for you to give the merchant any opportunity to fix it. 

    Section 75A is very different and it does require you to have tried to resolve it with the merchant first but as this is under £30k and was paid by CC it falls under S75 not S75A.


    Ideally the independent expert would opine on what of the materials is reusable, and what the additional materials and labour reasonably would be.


    As to Q4, the bank will ultimately give you a cash settlement based on the evidence you provide and their own investigations. It will be no surprise that if you give them two quotes they will base it on the lower of the two. As with all damages payments its purely your choice what you do with the money, you could user the cheaper landscaper, add more of your own money to pay the more expensive one or just keep the money and live with it in the state its in. 
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 17,507 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 4 February at 1:03PM
    DullGreyGuy said:

    No you dont, Section 75 makes the creditor jointly and severally liable with the merchant, there is no requirement for you to give the merchant any opportunity to fix it. 


    I don't think you've considered the bigger picture.

    Just to add some important detail to the statement you made: Section 75 makes the creditor jointly and severally liable with the merchant for breach of contract, or misrepresentation.

    Presumably, the OP will be making a claim for breach of contract.



    A claim for Breach of Contract is unlikely to succeed if you haven't given the trader reasonable opportunity to  remedy the breach (whether it's a section 75 claim, or a court claim.)


    Here's a random example of what a litigation solicitor says about claims for breach of contract:



    Link: https://lincolnandrowe.com/2024/01/16/breach-of-contract-questions-you-should-ask/#2_Should_you_provide_the_other_party_with_an_opportunity_to_remedy_the_breach



    So as I said, in order to succeed with your claim, realistically...  "You'd need to demonstrate that you gave the landscaper reasonable opportunity to put the problems right"

  • A_Geordie
    A_Geordie Posts: 157 Forumite
    100 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 4 February at 1:29PM
    @eddddy the law does not require the OP to give the landscaper an opportunity to fix the issues, unless the contract explicitly states as much or if the OP is relying on certain consumer rights and before they can claim damages or terminate the relationship they have to allow the landscaper a chance to remedy.

    However, according to the OP's post, it would appear the job has been completed so termination is no longer possible, only damages for breach of contract due to a failure to take reasonable care and skill, damage to goods etc.

    The OP has also mentioned that the landscaper is no longer communicating with the OP but still, as the CC company is jointly and severally liable along with the landscaper, it is up to the OP to choose who they want to pursue, which can be the landscaper or the CC company or both. Nothing in s75 requires the OP to try and resolve the situation with the landscaper first before going to the CC company. The CC company could arrange for a new landscaper to fix the issues or pay a lump sum settlement.

  • Rebecca0406
    Rebecca0406 Posts: 8 Forumite
    Third Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Ok so in response to some questions. 

    The invoice is split into materials, labour and VAT.

    I have a detailed list and a diagram from the original contractor of exactly what was being done and 2 reports listing all the problems with the work, including the fact that the home is at risk of rising damp due to the work being done incorrectly. 

    In terms of the materials that we should have, a) many of the tiles we have paid for are broken and will need replacing, b) the substrate will all need to come and be replaced so in fact we are going to have to replace a lot of the materials also. 

    The quote to fix the problem is a labour only quote, we will have the cost of replacing the tiles on top of this and there is a note stating the quote may end up higher as it cannot be determined how much work needs doing until the tiles come up and they see what they have done underneath so I’m concerned we may end up out of pocket if we only claim the quote cost.

    It is not an option to leave it as it is as the garden is currently inaccessible. Additionally we have given the original trader an opportunity to solve this when we raised our concerns. He dismissed them and tried to tell us thjs is how it’s supposed to be. When we produced a report proving otherwise he stopped responding to us. 
  • Rebecca0406
    Rebecca0406 Posts: 8 Forumite
    Third Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    I have uploaded some photos so you can see how it’s been left. 



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